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Author Topic: heating a 90g, T-5 lighting choice?  (Read 4734 times)
Clint
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« on: February 07, 2009, 01:06:18 PM »

Got this pretty much figured out and 400watts is what i'm shooting for. Only question is should i get 2 say 200watters or a single 400watt. Drs FS is having a sale on all heaters. Any brand/s which you would suggest be nice.
I figure it would either be 2 visi-therms stealth or deluxe,$18- $20 or so each? Or a single Hydor Theo 400watt for $25. Any thoughts folks? Will be ordering next day or so.

Also decided on the Hagen GLO dual T-5 48" over the Nova 48" FW dual T-5. I think the curved/half round reflectors would give more light? But the Nova is a really good deal at $101 with bulbs, the Hagen is $112 w/out bulbs. Do you have to use the suggested T-5 bulbs for given units? As the GLO fixture's bulbs happen to be about twice the cost of other T-5 bulbs? Keep in mind this is a 90g so i'm trying to get light down 24". But will have a big piece of driftwood with plenty of attaching crooks, but this willbe another subject. Thanks a bunch.

Got the second marineland 350/aqueon gravel cleaner, the budget is getting tight.
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
Annie O.
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 01:42:06 PM »

I would go with two heaters - that way they don't work so hard & if something happens to one of them, the other will keep the tank warm.  I have the Stealth Visi-Therms in my tanks & really like them.

Don't have any lighting advice for you - I'll leave that to someone with more knowledge.  I have Coralife compact fluorescent fixtures on both of my tanks & have been very happy with them.
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nesser
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 01:42:48 PM »

I would go with the multiple heater approach in case if one malfunctions,and I noticed with a digital thermometer that you get warm and cool places with one in the corner(depending on a particular setup).It would also be nice to have an auto shut off for when they are not submerged,sorry I cant be brand specific.The Hagen GLO looks like a good ballast but without knowing any specifications it's like comparing apples and oranges.
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RTR...Grumpy Ole Fogie
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 04:15:17 PM »

Are you planning a reef or FW very heavily planted?  That is an awful lot of light for FW. Automated CO2 feed and possible autodosing?   I only know a few FW folks who could handle that much light and most do not for long.
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Clint
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 04:29:12 PM »

FW, i'm only going for one or the other lighting fixtures, i'll be running 1 T-5 fixture with dual bulbs for a total of 108watts. Just weighing the pro and cons of either the new Hagen GLO or the older Nova extreme SLR FW setup.

What are your thoughts on the heaters?? I'd like 2, but 1, 400watt Hydor theo cost difference would pay for the cost of bulbs if i got the hagen GLO.
Both lights are advertised in below link. Budget is getting tight, but i want to start right.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 11:35:11 PM »

I don't ordinarily use heaters (waste heat from the filters heats the tanks, and lighting does the same for the room), so I can't help with that.  Ihave heaters in the shrimp-only small tanks with air-driven sponges and they are used only a few moths of the year if that.

108 watts is pretty low for a planted tall tank.  Twice that would be moderate light levels.



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russ
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 12:59:21 AM »

Personally that 400 watt heater (if its the type I'm thinking about) has a separate controller, probe and heating module? ...................it's a toy at that price. Go with two Visi Therm heaters. Wink

Nova Extreme are pretty good lamps.



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Clint
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 11:23:49 AM »


here is  the 400 w
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3743+11368&pcatid=11368

most know what the visi therms stealth/deluxe a local pet store wants $40+ for a deluxe, insane prices on most stuff. I know i should be going with twin Visi-therms. Trying to squeeze it into my budget.

Now the lighting thing, if need be i will add 4' shop light T-12 with 40watt bulbs to make up for any lack of lighting needs.

When it comes to watts per gallon "rule" does this still apply for say a T-12 40watt bulb vs a T-5 54watt bulb. How much more lighting (lumens) am i gaining with a T-5 setup? If a dual T-5 setup isn't going to cut it. Would it just be better suspending a quad T-12 shoplight from the ceiling down to the tank? would then have 4 40watts totaling 160watts, going? Someone enlighten me
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
Clint
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 11:41:55 AM »

Better yet what would be a suitable wattage for a 24" deep tank. many plants will be attached to a piece of driftwood about 12" deep, javas or anubias, moss? I will want a foreground plant as well. So i will need enough light that reaches the bottom. After substrate 20" or so. Probably go with a Valisneria as a background plant. So say i get the Nova dual T-5's for 108 watts. How much more wattage would i want to be running for a non co/2 tank using excel products? Would a 4' shoplight T-12 bulbs be an asset?
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
RTR...Grumpy Ole Fogie
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 12:21:56 AM »

If the T-5s have really good reflectors, it would be close to enough light for those plants., but not at substrate level, you would need at least half again for that, maybe up to double that.

Java Moss and Java Fern will both do okay on the wood at that height and lighting level or lower.  I don't do Anubias nana other than substrate planted and expect any significant growth, and only very rare flowers.  I don't suggest it unless you have lots of A. nana to spare - but it is too expensive to purchase for that use IMHO, and a waste.  You would never see what the plant really is.  It makes a great carpet for me, but it is still slow to grow.  The only fast-growing carpets are high light CO2 grown, and are pretty demanding on upkeep.  I would suggest either A. nana or Crypts - C.wendtii especially - it is available in many shades and colors and very,very hardy and undemanding. It multiplies faster than A. nana under comparable conditions.

There are hundreds of lighting combos that can work, which you use is a personal choice.  Your tank is deep, but not especially so.  there is little or no difference in planting at i8' depth or 21'' or a bit more.  I can do all the plants mentioned here from ~1.6 to just over 2.0 WPG of NO (T-12s) fluoresnts (T-5s would require less wattage).  Toward the lower end, no supplements are required.  At and above 2.0 WPG NO, I am very likely to need supplemnts in some form - Excel (very carefully with Val in the tank, it can be damaged or killed), Flourish, and likely iron. Some of those will depend on the particular substrate and even the particular tank.  Above 2.0WPG NO, I have to start adding macro-nutrients (nitrogen , phosphate, potassium).  If I add Excel, I always add Flurish and usually iron (may not be needed in Flourite).

HTH

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Clint
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 10:15:16 AM »

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+19811&pcatid=19811

RTR check out the link, that is the reflector that comes with the Hagen GLO,  its mirror like and domed. Identical to the ones we have talked about in the past.  I don't know how it compares with the Nova's but would have to think the restrike from the GLO would be greater. I saw these at the pet store and they put out alot of light. They are nice units compared to low end coralifes i saw, very similar to the novas. Which is all fine and good but, from what your saying i'd need another what 54watts? A third T-5, which would put me at 1.8wpg. I'm not big on the Hagen name, but these lights are well made/designed

This is the actual unit. As you can see they aren't flat to accommodate the domed reflector which is highly polished.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+19759&pcatid=19759



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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
RTR...Grumpy Ole Fogie
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 04:12:48 PM »

The Coralifes are low-priced units and they certainly do not have great reflectors.  They seem to give good but not great light distribution.   I would not be likely to use them myself on a tall* tank - too much wasted light out through the sides. To me they are less-obstrusive version of NO fixtures, and that is the main way they seem to be used on the setups I seen from the local group.
*(I am tall, with long arms, but anything I can't reach easily without wet armpits is Tall - highly personal definition, but definitely so for planted tanks  My big tanks are idle in part because I will not use them again without access to both sides - 24x~24" cross-sections).

The better reflectors might up you higher than you want to be with three - but they look barrel or round in section to me from the pics - have you seen then in person?  Round is not a good reflector shape - as you say, terrible resrike, wasteful - it also heats the bulb more from the restrike.  Parabolic is the usual compromise shape, but for straight tubes only, its not the best for the power compacts, the folded tubes.  Those need a weird  inverted sort-of bowed W with the center inverted V short and broad.

I did not search the site - do they give much/any info of the tube output?  spectrum, color temp?

I have never been big on Hagen myself, but they did buy the design and rights to the small Tetra air-driven filters when the new owners sold off the two best Tetra products, those small-tank units and the Luft pump (now at Coralife).  So now at least some products from Hagen and Coralife are in my routine use equipment.  Wink

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Clint
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 10:07:29 AM »

They are the W shaped reflectors with curved sides. I saw them at the pet store and immediately thought about our conversation on reflectors. I did some more online research yesterday. What i found was alot of guys comparing it to a nova. Most said the Hagen blew away the nova as far as brightness and the light getting where it needs to go. I wanted to go with the cheaper Nova. But after reading yesterday, the hagens sound like with twin tubes might just get me by.

below is the best pic i can find on the refelector
http://www.petsolutions.com/images/400/15513912d.jpg
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
RTR...Grumpy Ole Fogie
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2009, 11:12:46 AM »

Yup, that is a good reflector, the reflection of the tube mounts is a dead giveaway - minimal restrike.  That does look good.  with that you just might get away with the two units without the third.  If it were me,  I would do the setup without the third initially.  Then I would test with the room lights off, tank full of water and the light on - hold a strip of white cardboard or aluminum foil alongside the tank, even with the stand to see the light scatter from the tank.  If the cardboard is dimmer than the tank substrate, you are in!  Lighting the floor and area around a tank is wasteful - tank light should largely stay in the tank.  There are cheaper ways to light rooms.  That is why the fancy reflectors can advertise  up to 150-160% of the light delivery - minimal restrike and just about all of it aimed downward, not out to the sides.   If that works, guess where that ~150% effective wattage puts you?  Right where you want to be. That's why I would start that way and find out how the setup behaves as it settles in.  The final proof is how it grows, but that rakes time to see.

That sound good to me.

BTW - do not look directly at the reflector with the light on - its like staring at car headlights up close - blinding.
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"Where's the fish?" - Neptune
kibensis101
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 12:17:28 PM »

I have a elite 100 Watt in my 75 gallon and it is on all the time and keeps the tank at 80 degrees. You don't need such a big heater unless your house in 40 degrees. I like to use small heaters, because if they mal function they won't boil the fish. I would go with 2 200 watts, then try if one would do it.

 Wink Wink
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Clint
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 11:52:15 AM »

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. I'm getting the Hagen GLO dual 4' T-5 and a pair of Life-GLO 6700k bulbs which put out 4300 lumens each.

Is there any reason to use a 10,000K bulb in a planted tank? Most of the FW lighting sets i've seen offer or come with 1) 6700K and 1) 10,000K should i be looking at adding a 10,000k or stick with the pair of 6700k's?

I'm also going to get the Visi-therm deluxe 2) 200watt'ers.

Dam, right back to where i started from.
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20g 3 praecox rainbows, 1 Skunk botias,

90g 7 boesemani, 2 irian rainbows, 2 turquoise rainbows,   7 yoyo loach, 12 Pangio kuhli, 8 oblonga kuhli, 5 zebra loach, 4 clown loaches, 1 rainbow shark, 3 denison barbs.
RTR...Grumpy Ole Fogie
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 05:22:47 PM »

It depends on the light - some 10,000K tubes look blue, but at least one that another club member used (for plants) looked very white and grew plants very well.  That really just points up a weakness in our use of the Kelvin scale - it is used properly with black-body radiation.  With other sources, it can sometimes mislead, as it is an approximation, not a real measure for us.  Plus, Human eyes are flat-reading even with our limited range.  We are most sensitive to the green range of light/color, and can distinguish more shades there than in most of the rest of the visible spectrum combined.  That also lead to individual differences.  some folks see color differently from others, and individuals differ in their preferences as well as vision.  Plants are not really much different in that they do vary, but most of what they use is not in the green, where (and also why) we see best.  Plants "prefer" ranges within the blues and the reds, but by accessory pigments can make use of a broader range after adaptation time.  Adapting plants to different spectra and/or intensities is quite real - they may have to modify the pigments they use to capture light, but they can a adapt quite a bit.  Some spectra maybe listed as "optimum", but that does not mean that others will fail.  It means only that photosynthesis may not be at maximum efficiency in other lighting.

Basically it means selecting lights that you like the look of yourself - which is hard if you have seen them on planted tanks.  Cameras do not see the tanks (actually the light) the same as we do, so that is not a help.  You aim for what should work or could work, and if you don't like the look, get something else at replacement time.  I like the look of the Phillips 6700K NO tubes that I use on most of my tanks now - but that does not mean that I will like the other 6700K tubes equally.  It does mean that I like the color of my plants and fish and tank in the somewhat "cooler" areas, rather than in the "warmer", lower K areas, which look yellow to me and as if the tank were very lightly tannin-stained.  But thatis pure personal choice.  I can and have grow plants pretty much the same in both ranges, but I prefer the higher K "look".  In the "warmer" lighted tank I always want to get out the activated carbon and clean up the water.  But it is not the water, it is the light. 

At this point, so long as they are being offered for plants, it is a coin toss for you.  Unless someone here has personal experience with those particular tubes, which I do not.
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