Fish loss

[Desperate Vancouver]

I have had a 20 gallon tank for about 4 months with 6 neons, 5 rummy noses, one algae eater and a pair of sword tails and 4 shrimp. I do weekly 20% water changes and the quality is OK except the pH has gone from 7  to 7.6 Temp is 80 degrees. I have treated once for ich and and once for ? fungal disease at my pet shop's suggestion.
 The tetras are dying one by one, stopping eating(seeming unable to swallow) becoming very emaciated with hollow abdomens then dying in about a week.
I have only 3 rummy noses remaining. The sword tails and shrimp seem fine.
 Any ideas? Its getting depressing.

[maura]

Hi, Vancouver, and welcome to the site.  Glad you're here, and I hope we can get your tank straightened out.

Couple of questions for you - you say the water quality is okay.  Do you test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?  Do you have a test kit with liquid reagents, not the dip strips?  I ask because with that many critters in the tank, and 20% weekly changes, and without lots and lots of live plants in the tank, your nitrates are probably 40 ppm or more.

Please do get a good test kit and test your water and post the numbers here, not just "good" or "okay"

Next, start doing 25 to 30% changes twice a week, gradually working up to one 50% change a week.

Third, don't replace any of the fish you've lost until you're sure the tank is stable.  The original stocking was very heavily stocked to overstocked.  In my 20s I have one school of tetras and one school of cories each, (One is 7 mixed skirt tetras, and 6 peppered cories, the other is 7 lamp eye tetras and 6 julii cories) and I consider that fully stocked.

Finally, did you see signs of ich or fungal infection or where you treating for those as a precaution or a guess?  Ich medication is very hard on fish, two medications in a short time is also very stressful.  Also, treating for either condition without good water quality/lots of water changes is in general not very successful.

Post back with some water quality numbers and we'll go from there.

[Desperate Vancouver]

Dear Maura, many thanks for speedy reply.
Tank about 1/3 full of healthy plants.
I usually measure with the strips but also take samples to pet shop.
Todays results after 30% change ph7.3, KH14, nitrite 0.5, nitrate 10, GH 180, and for the first time he measured copper at 0.6 and said this was very high.
 I have been doing the water changes with mostly cold water from the tap but warming it up to mid 70s with water from hot tap( I do use the dechlorinator). I had started to do this as I had one tetra affected by gas bubble disease and thought it best to get the new water warmed before adding to tank.
Regarding medications I first used metronidazole as one tetra had a flat white growth on the side of it's head, about 2mm. Didn't look like typical ich to me but that was husband's and petman's best guess.
Then gave antibacterial as prophylactic for fish with bubble disease to prevent 2ndary infection. Probably bad idea in retrospect.
 So certainly may have screwed up biological filter.
 Will wait for your opinion on Cu. Have taken several samples of tap water to petshop man in the meantime.
 Thanks again. 

[maura]

Three thoughts:

Nitrite of .5 is a problem and can be what's killing some fish.  Since your tank has been set up for 4 months, I assume with fish in it, I also assumed you were cycled, by that nitrite reading makes me think that you're not.  Have you replaced or cleaned anything in your filter?   We usually recommend cleaning filter pads in old tank water or dechlorinated water, straight tap water can kill off the biofilter.  It's also possible that the ich medicine or the antibiotic killed off your biofilter and you're experiencing a new cycle. With that nitrite reading, you need to do 40 - 50% water changes *daily* until the reading's back to zero.  You probably want your own test kit so you can test at home.  A note for the future - with ich, you would need to treat the whole tank no matter what.  For bacterial infection, it would have been best to remove the infected fish from the tank and treated just that fish, not the whole tank.  Truthfully, the best treatment for infection is pristinely clean water - daily water changes.

Temperature shock can definitely kill fish - you want to get the water as close as possible to the temperature of the tank before adding it.

Copper is also a problem.  Many ich medications contain copper, check the label on yours.  Also have your tap water tested and see what the copper reading is straight out of the tap.  After medicating a tank, the usual recommendation is to add activated charcoal to the filter for a day or so to pull any residual meds out of the tank; then do a large water change.  If your tap water tests negative for copper, that procedure is definitely in order.  If you have traces of copper in your tap water, you need to make certain your dechlorinator neutralizes heavy metals - should say so on the label.  I would also let the water sit a few minutes after adding the dechlorinator before adding it to your tank.

Sorry - I know that's a lot to think about!

[Karen]

Any detectable nitrite will kill neons.  They are very sensitive to it.  The copper is coming from all the meds.  Your water temp could be dropped a few degrees, its a little high.

Like Maura said... you need to change a LOT more water.  Start doing those 2x a week 30% for a couple of weeks, and then switch to weekly 50% changes from here on.

Please go buy a proper test kit.  Anytime you can detect nitrite do a 50% water change.  For now, test daily.

[Desperate Vancouver]

Thanks for great advice.
It turns out my tap water tested high for copper,  0.45.
Is this a problem? I heard that copper was bad for invertebrates but those with exoskeletons are less vulnerable. My shrimp seem to be thriving.
I can Brita filter my tap water but do I have to throw out all the gravel and start again?

I did cycle my tank initially and this is the first time it has tested positive for nitrites since then. When all this started happening I did get it tested at the petshop and there were no nitrites then.
I think that mucking about with the filters during the medicating has contributed.
The ich med I used was Seachem Metronidazole and does not mention Cu.

So I will get a decent test kit (why do they sell the strips?!?!) and do the water changes with filtered water.

I would be grateful for your opinion as to the copper situation

[maura]

Metronidazole is an antibiotic that is also effective against some anerobic parasites.  It wouldn't have been my first choice for treating ich (meds containing copper sulphate are the most effective); and it is likely the culprit that killed your biofilter and caused the tank to recycle.  This is a type of med that is best used in a dedicated hospital tank for that very reason.   What was the antifungal med, or did someone recommend the Metronidazole for both?.

I think the best method to deal with the copper is to get a dechlorinator that neutralizes heavy metals, and pre-mix the dechlor and new water thoroughly before adding to the tank.

I have a lot of copper and iron in my tap water and I can't keep inverts either.  I also having to be very careful about dechlor and dosing the dehclor as I add the water. 

Don't let this distract you from the main issue, and that's a cycling tank.

[Desperate Vancouver]

Thanks again, I will concentrate on the water changes but how concerned should I be about the copper?
I am using Nutrafin Aqua Plus which states it nutralizes heavy metals. I will give it a good stir and let it stand before adding to the tank ( I think I rushed it before).

Do I also need to Brita filter it?

Do I need to replace the gravel?

Your advice on how to use the medications is extremely helpful. A pity the instructions on the drugs are not so clear. I used metronidazole for ich as I have shrimps and had been told I couldn't use the other stuff. And I used Maracyn later.
I hearby promise to concentrate on the quality of my water and avoid the use of drugs without very good reason. I appreciated Sully's article on the philosophy water keeping.

[Karen]

There is no reason beyond "Because I want to" to ever change your gravel.

If your decholorinator is neutralizing your copper, you don't need the britta filter.

Keep in mind that neutralized copper is still there, and it will still test as being there in a test kit.  It just won't hurt anything.

[Shaner]

API Tap Water Conditioner will take care of all free copper, the chelated copper in meds is a differant form of copper, free copper is the very lethal stuff. I know I went thru it.

[Desperate Vancouver]

I have 2 swordtails who have just had fry, two rummynose tetras and 4 shrimp.
I have been doing twice weekly 30% water changes and testing with a proper kit.

3 days after giving birth my female swordtail has ich.

I know I have to treat the whole tank but cannot use the usual meds because of the shrimp.

Should I remove the shrimp to another tank and treat the main tank with ich med (if so what is best considering the fry?)
and do the shrimp need treating? Do they get ich? I did transfer some of the water from the main tank when setting up the small tank for the shrimp.

[maura]

Treat the small tank for ich, do a 100% water change, then run the filter with some activated charcoal to remove any residual meds, then move the shrimp.  Then treat your main tank for ich.

I do not know whether or not shrimp can be asymptomatic carriers of ich; but ich has a freeswimming stage and a stage where an encysted stage drops to the tank substrate, both could be in your small tank since youi moved water from the infected tank over.

Ich meds can also kill off the biofilter, meaning both tanks will recycle.  You'll have to be very diligent about testing water and doing water changes once the ich is irradicated.

Once you're through this, use that small tank as a quarantine tank; it will help you avoid this going forward.

[Desperate Vancouver]

Quick question.
20 gallon tank with 2 rummy nosed tetras, 2 swordtails who had babies 5 days ago, and 4 shrimp.
Female swordtail has just got ich.

I know I should treat the whole tank but am nervous of causing a minicycle with antibiotics. I know that I can't use some of the usual ich meds with invertebrates. What about the safety of meds with the babies?

I have set up a 6 gallon tank. Should I move shrimp to the little tank and treat main tank with something (if so what?)
Or should I move babies to the new tank and treat main tank with metronidazole?

I have been doing 2x weekly 30% water changes and filtering water to try to reduce copper which is in my tap water. I have a proper test kit and no nitrite, pH7.5 temp 79.  

I would be grateful for your opinion.

Staff Comment

I merged this two threads as the new thread was so similar to the old. Easier to keep all the info and all the member posts in one place

[Desperate Vancouver]

Thanks.
Can you recommend which ich treatment I should use in the main tank and will it be OK for the babies.

[maura]

I'll be very honest, any and all ich treatments are hard on fish and especially hard on fry.  However, it you don't aggressively treat the entire tank for ich, it *will* eventually kill all your fish, so it's not much of a choice - you may lose some of your fish with the ich treatment, but it's better than losing all of them.

I don't have a brand name preference, but I have had and heard of better results with products containing malachite green. 

Here's an article that briefly explains the life cycle of the parasite and the treatment options:

http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=1024.0

Finally, ich outbreaks are the thing that usually convinces hobbyists that a quarantine tank and quarantining new fish purchases is a necessity.  Prevention is a whole lot easier than cure.

[GunMan]

You mentioned you had an algae eater... If I am assuming correctly, a 20 gallon is not nearly big enough, and possibly the algae eater or (Chinese Algae Eater or Siamese Algae Eater), is sucking the slime coat off the poor tetras? I don't know I might be wrong but just guessing.