Overstocked ?

[selvan777]

Hi,

Will the below community do well in a planted 20 gallon long?  I'm using a hang-on-back filter and three 2" air stones?

If so, what water change ritual do you think I should follow?  I plan on using only aged tap water that's been sitting in an open container indoors for just a week.

1 double tail betta
2 jullie corys
3 male endlers
3 female endlers
6 cardinal tetras

Thanks

[Karen]

The big flaw I see is that corys are a schoolin fish and really do best in groups of 6.  You do have room in that tank for a group of 6.  I love the mix you are plotting, it will be very nice looking tank.

Your endlers will breed and try to make more endlers... that is what they do, but your betta will control that by doing what he does.  You will probably never see any babies.  As long as you are ok with that... enjoy!

And welcome to Badmans!

[selvan777]

Hi and thanbks Karen.

I kept the Corys to a bare minimum so as to leave space for the others, they do hang out together happily.  I'm currently at 21" and 4 more would take me to 29".  I know they don't really take up too much schooling space but what about the added pollution from access fish waste.

I am okay with the Betta doing population control but I was hoping that there's enough hiding spaces as is.

What about the water type and change?  Any input on that?

[maura]

Why is the aged tap water necessary?   Is there a reason not to just use regular tap water and dechlorinator?

Standard recommendtion for water changes is 50% per week.

[Karen]

The 1" per gallon rule is a complete and total myth.  Please don't give it any merit.  The list of things being ignored by it is quite staggering. 

There is no need to "age" your water, that is also a myth that stems from the days when water municipalities only put chlorine into your tap water.  Chlorine would evaporate out (with in 24 hours) and you could safely use it in your aquarium.  Today they use a mix of chlorine and chloramine as the chloramine is MUCH much more stable and makes for better water quality.  However the chloramine will not evaporate out.  You need to add a dechlorinator for that.  The two most commonly used ones are API tap water conditioner and Prime.   Simply add the dechlorinator to the tank, and then put the new water in.  The chemical reaction is instant.

[selvan777]

Hi Karen,

Your posts are very helpful, thank you.

I'm so glad you explained why I should give up the old habit aging water, I'm definitely off to the store for API or Prime tomorrow.

I'm very interested in hearing how YOU drain and refill the tank in detail, would you mind?  I'm thinking to clean gravel as much as possible with the tube and slow fill from the kitchen sink or from 5 gallon buckets at room temp.

Is a 50% water change every week a good idea or too much.  Before you respond to that please reconsider my 20 gal long community below.

1 double tail betta
6 jullie corys
3 male endlers
3 female endlers
6 cardinal tetras
2 ghost shrimp
2 otos

[Karen]

I use a python.  Its a hose thing with a gravel vac on it.  The fresh water tanks with out babies in them get drained by a gravel vac with a hose on it right out the window and into the garden.  The ones with babies get drained into a barrel in the basement so I can check the water for "rescues" before discarding it.  I change 50-70% every 6-10 days and record on a spread sheet my measurements for water parameters.  I don't measure any of them very often but I do measure all of them on occasion.  Typically I pick a parameter a week and measure every tank for it, that way each tank get everything checked at least monthly.  Nitrates get measure at least every 2 weeks as those are a little more important.  (pH, KH, GH, DO, and nitrate; and if needed: salinity, nitrite, and ammonia)  The fresh water tanks are refilled with the Python as well.  I dump in the API water conditioner and attach the Python to the fixture in the kitchen.  I have a dedicated fish tank filling tap that dispenses two temperatures of water: cold and warm.  Warm water tanks get warm water, the goldfish get cold water.

On to your stocking.  You hadn't mentioned ottos and shrimp before.  I think you are starting to push limits.  You were FULLY stocked before (with 6 corries), you are now headed for over stocked if you add more fish and shrimp.

What fish are currently in the tank?  And what fish are being planned?  Are you measuring nitrite, nitrates and ammonia?

[selvan777]

I have the following and would like to add 4 more jullies.

1 double tail betta
2 jullie corys
3 male endlers
3 female endlers
6 cardinal tetras
2 ghost shrimp
2 otos

All the fish above have been in the tank for about a month but the shrimp were added about three days ago.

I take water samples in a new ziploc bag to Petsmart to test and here are the results:

Nitrate 5
Nitrite 0
Hardness 75 (down from 150 a week ago)
Chlorine 0
Alkalinity 120 (down from 150 a week ago)
PH 7.0
Ammonia 0

[Ysteb]

You need to pick either otos or cory fish. If your tank does not have live plants, pick the cory fish. Take the "unpicked" fish back to the store. Then increase the numbers of your "kept" fish by 4 as planned.

[Karen]

Thanks Ysteb.  You left the otos and shrimp out of the original list, which means you no longer have room for more corries unless you rehome something else. 

[selvan777]

What if I did this to also help the survival of any fry, rehome the Betta. 

If I did, could I keep the following comfortably:

6 jullie corys
3 male endlers
3 female endlers
6 cardinal tetras
2 ghost shrimp
2 otos

[selvan777]

I do have live plants but that's a plus, right?

[selvan777]

Sorry for the over posts...

I forgot to mention again that I do have live plants but that's a plus, right, for any fish?

From what I understand the Cory is a very good bottom feeder (a good vacuum cleaner) and the Oto eats only algae and needs live plants in a well established tank.  I don't have an algae problem at all but would like sucker fish in the community.

I guess the big question is can my selection and quantity of fish cohabit healthily and happily together or is it still too crowded?

6 jullie corys
3 male endlers
3 female endlers
6 cardinal tetras
2 ghost shrimp
2 otos

P.S. I got a 16oz bottle of API Tap Water Conditioner from http://www.drsfostersmith.com for $11.68 shipped.

[Stefanie]

Just my  cents...

I'd leave out the otos. They do eat more than algae (mine nibble on cucumber, squash and sinking wafers - just to be sure they always have enough to eat), but they're only out late at night after the tank light is off, so you're rarely going to see them. Like cories, otos are also better (happier) in groups. If you don't have a lot of algae, having the otos isn't going to benefit your tank (or them) and would leave you room for a happier sized school of cories. (Or endlers....because I have a feeling you'll be seeing plenty of fry down the road... ).

[Karen]

Removing the "end to the Endler Reproduction" doesn't help the problem, it makes it worse as now you will have an explosion of new fish adding to your biomass.  Each female endler will add 3 or 4 new endlers to your tank every 28 days.  Twelve new fish a month will become a problem real fast unless you plan on setting up another tank!  Another solution to that problem is to have only males or only females.

Either ottos or corries, not both.  Which ever you chose needs to be in a group of 6.  Ottos are smaller, I would lean toward them, but its a matter of personal preference.

[selvan777]

Thanks for the help everyone, I'm truly trying to decide what it is I want to do with my 20 gallon long underwater world.

How about this:

06 jullie cories
?# cardinal tetras

My aquarium is heavily planted and I plan on keeping it that way.  There is 30 inches of schooling area from end to end and more going toward the back wall at one end.  That said, what's the maximum number Cardinals do think I should keep with the six Cories keeping in mind that I hope to get get skillful enough to maintain these sensitive Cardinals so as to achieve the two inch potential.

Has anyone here done that or still is?

I plan on spending at  least two hours drip acclimating them.
Doing 50% water changes weekly.
Keeping a varied diet with flake and live food.
Trying to maintain steady water parameters.

[GunMan]

Also just putting my  in...

I wouldn't take out the Betta if I were you! They would look (depending on the colour) amazing with the Cardinal Tetras! I think you should still have a betta on the list! (:

[selvan777]

Thanks for those two bits, I do miss our all red Double-Tail Betta we called Flame. 

Perhaps another day we'll add one again.

But for now, how many Cardinals do you think I can keep with 6 Corries?

[selvan777]

I hope I'm not loosing your interest!

Deciding what fish to keep has become a difficult one with just a 20 gallon long.
This was the fish species I started with after much research:

cardinal tetra
black phantom tetra
glowlight tetra
rummy nose tetra
endler
harlequin rasbora
cherry barb
betta
honey sunset gourami
ghost shrimp
cory
oto

And have narrowed it down to this:

7 cardinals
6 endlers (3 pairs)
2 ghost shrimp (unique to watch)
3 julii cories (? a pair)
2 otos
lots of live plants and hiding places

The cardinals are my main focus and the odd number just appeals to me.  The betta or gourami are out because I don't want anything larger than the cardinals.  As to the explosion of biomass from fry, I'll step up the water changes till I'm ready to give them away.  Maybe not the best but considering my smaller tank I think a small group of 3 cories and a pair of otos is okay.  I do see the otos together frequently during the day going from plant to glass and even the substrate.  I've added some real veggies to their diet.

What do you think, your opinion does mean a lot to me?

[Stella G]

Your cories really need to be in a larger group, as do the otos.  Up them both to 5 or 6 and they will be happier.  I still have to agree with the consensus that mixing male and female livebearers in a relatively small tank is not such a great idea.  If you like Endlers then I would say to just keep males.  If you do end up keeping males and females then go ahead and set up a grow out tank NOW.  Get it cycled and ready to go.  You'll need it almost immediately.  Those babies will just keep coming and coming and coming.......

And FYI - you'll have a harder time trying to sell the females, since the males are the colorful ones.  I only ever see males at my LFS.  I don't think they ever carry the females.

[selvan777]

Hi Stella

Thanks for the reply.

Are you saying the below is fine if I have a grow out tank ready for the fry, I would love to fit it all if possible?

7 cardinals
6 endlers (3 pairs)
2 ghost shrimp (unique to watch)
6 julii cories (paired hopefully)
6 otos (paired hopefully)

I do like the Endlers and my two sons would really enjoy seeing the female give birth (if lucky enough) and see the fry.  My not so LFS has equal amounts of males and females although I'm sure the males will be sold faster.

[Stella G]

Since it's a long, I think you can get away with it, but you are at your limit.  You'll need to be diligent with water changes and remove the babies to a grow out tank rather quickly so they don't add to the bioload.  It does work in your favor that you are keeping small fish and that the tank will be planted, but you still need to be careful and watch those water parameters.

[selvan777]

    awesome   

Thanks everyone

[selvan777]

I just read about the dwar cories and may be able to cut 3 inches, if I can find these little guys.  No luck on on-line stores.

Corydoras Cochui, habrosus or pygmaeus (1st, 2nd & 3rd choice).

[MRM]

Having kept hasbrosus and pygmaeus I would recomend going with the hasbrosus, you will see them more often. A school of 7 to 9 should be fine. So this is how I would stock the tank

7 cardinals
6 endlers (males only. If stocking female endlers it is best to do a 2:1 M:F ratio so the females will have some alone time. Though not as forceful as other live bearer males male endlers are still persistant.)
2 ghost shrimp (unique to watch)
7-9 habrosus (You might get lucky and have a female or two and they might even lay eggs. In all the time I have kept the hasbrosus I have only had one female that bred successfully. They are a schooling/shoaling fish and do not form pairs. THis is true for all cories. Dealers that sell "mated pairs" are running a scam to jack up prices.)
6 otos (again these guys do not pair and though not unheard of it is very rare to have successful captive breeding.)

That is what I would do. I tend to stock a bit on the heavy side though. You have to keep up with the water changes. If you should choose to upgrade to a 55 in the future (recomended) then I would not any new species but up your cory and cardinal schools.