Help please, what is wrong w/ my platy?

[shaylatoby]

I have a male hi fin platy who is having some fin issues. This all started the begining of August. He was bullied by another male platy and had a bite taken out of the top corner of his tail. I got rid of the aggressive male right away. After about 3 weeks I noticed that the bottom corner of  his tail turned a lighter gray (his tail is light black/dark gray) and it appeared to be shedding whitish "slime". I did a 7 day treatment of melafix and there was no change. I figured this sounded like fin rot so 2 weeks later I did a 4 day treatment of API brand tc tetracycline. Still no change. So I waited another 2-3 weeks and did a 14 day dose of melafix. After the 14 days I did a 20% water change (just water) and his tail looked better. The color was darker like normal and the "slime" was gone. A week later I did a 25% water change w/vac like I do every week and 2 days later the "slime" was back and the tail color was getting pale again. I ordered some maracyn plus online and got it about a week later and started dosing w/ that. I am halfway through that treatment and it still looks bad, no change. Is this fin rot? No one at the local pet shops seems to know since this isn't textbook fin rot. His tail is wearing away but not super ragged and no holes. He seems fine otherwise, he's very active, eating, swimming normally. None of the other fish have this. I regularly test my water and I've even taken it to the pet store and everything tests fine. I do weekly water changes w/ vac so I don't think my water quality is an issue. I am sure too that no other fish is picking on him. I have a 12g eclipse tank w/ 4 harlequin rasboras, 3 female platies and then this 1 male platy. So my tank isn't really overstocked. Please any advice and help would be greatly apperciated. I want to help my fish but nothing is working. I had alittle success w/ the melafix but I wasn't sure if I could continue using it longer than 14 days or more long term. Sorry for all the questions, I'm fairly new to fishkeeping and new to this site.

[maura]

Hi, shayla,  to badmans!

Sorry you're having problems.  

You didn't mention you've done in between treatments to clear one medication from the tank before starting another; I'm curious about that. Overlapping meds can cause some problems.

I'm also curious as to what your routine tank maintenence is like.

Before you even answer those questions, let me let you know that by this board's standards you're certainly fully stocked (though not overstocked), and that a 50% weekly water change schedule would be recommended if the fish didn't have any health issues.

Since you are having some health issues, I'd recommend a 30 - 40 % change every other day; nothing helps bacterial or fungal issues like lots of fresh, clean water.

I'd also recommend that you get a test kit or have your water tested at the LFS and post the numbers, you may also want to monitor the water parameters closely.  It's possible/highly likely that the tetracycline killed off the biofilter in your tank and the tank is going to recycle.  Knowing your water parameters in that situation is critical.

So, post back and let us know how it's going.

[shaylatoby]

In between treatments was usually a couple of weeks and I would put the carbon back in the filter and then do 4 water changes or so over those few weeks. No more than 25% at a time. I tried to spread them out into smaller w/c rather than big ones. I heard that was better to do it that way. I don't know the exact numbers of my tests but I have an ammonia sensor in the tank and that always reads "safe". I use the test strips and those come out the right color that the directions say is normal and the pet store said is the normal range. I never get any color on the nitrate or nitrite. So that means zero according to the strips. I also have a test kit for ammonia, it's API brand, the one where you have the test tube and add the drops. It always turns yellow which is the lowest, I think it means no ammonia. When I do w/c, I add dechlorinater drops or stresscoat. I alternate between the 2. After every treatment, when I do a water change I also added alittle stress zyme. Just in case the bacteria was affected. To the best of my knowledge, I've been doing everything right, so I'm just so frustrated. The guy at the pet store that I deal with the most (he seems to be more knowledgable & actually has fish) said that he would suggest finish out this round of maracyn plus. If no change, quit that med and do a w/c. Then wait another week or so, doing a couple small w/c during that time. Then go back to using the melafix, since that's the only one I have saw any improvement with. Do the melafix as directed for 14 days. Do a w/c and if it's looking better treat w/ melafix another 7 days. He said a good rule of thumb w/ any med is to treat for another 7-10 days after you see some improvement just to make sure. He said if that doesn't work maybe to try upping the temp to around 80 degrees (right now its set at 77 and runs between 76-78) and adding 1 tbl salt for every 5 gallons of water. And see if that works. After that he didn't know if there was anything that would work. Does his advice sound right? It made sense to me but then again I'm new to the sick fish stuff. If I'm doing something wrong please let me know. I want to help my fish but I'm begining to think there is no hope.

[Karen]

The only of your test readings that has any value is the API ammonia test with the test tube. 

A tank with 0 nitrates either has no fish in it or is newly set up, yours is neither proving how useless the test is.  Dip strip tests are ALMOST accurate enough to detect ammonia in cat urine.  Almost.  Seriously, throw them out.  Your bacteria in a bottle is a marketing ploy and is doing its job beautifully.  Its job is to make you feel good about using it so you will buy more.  Outside of that, it has no function.  Stress coat is adding things to your tank that aren't really needed, stick with the dechlorinator.

You need to get a liquid reagent test kit for nitrite and nitrate. 


Maura's advise is spot on.  It usually is..... LOTS of water changes.  Its amazing how effective really clean water is at treating ailments.  Doing 2 or 3 50% water changes a week is more effective at treating most minor illnesses than any product on the market.  And cheaper too.  Fish have immune systems, but the water has to be in good shape for those immune systems to be in top function.  Let nature do, what nature does. 

[maura]

shayla,

Melafix has very mild herbal antibiotic and antifungal properties; if you've used it previously with no results, it's not likely to work this go round.  It's not a whole lot more effective that lots of water changes and super clean water.

Any time you use an antibiotic, such as Maracyn or tetracycline, you kill off your biofilter and cause the tank to cycle again.  You do need a real test kit as Karen suggested.  The fish may not be healing because of the toxins in a cycling tank.  Getting actual levels for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is critical to manage this process. Stess Zyme doesn't do anything to restore the biofilter or shorten the cycle.  Many products claim to do this, we only know of one, possilby two, that actually do.

Once you get your water quality under control, consider treating next with Maracyn II.  If your fish's problem is bacterial in nature, you may not yet found the correct antibiotic to treat this particular bacterial strain.  Maracyn II  affects a different spectrum of bacteria.

Finally, can you post a phot of the fish?  Might help us help you.

[shaylatoby]

I would post a pic but I tried 4 times and it won't let me. I did get good results with the melafix when I used it for 14 days in a row. I quit using it because I didn't know if I could use it for longer than 14 days in a row. Can I use it more long term than that? The results I saw were good. His color came back in his tail and the slime stopped. Should I try that again? Did I just not use it long enough? I just went by the directions on the bottle. I am a newbie so I have lots of questions... If I do more than once a week water changes, do I use a gravel vac everytime or just once a week? Should I add salt to the tank? Can I add salt and use the melafix at the same time? Since I can't post a pic I will try to describe his tail. It turns a littler grayish/white and then seems to get mushy and ooze or slime off his tail. The tail is wearing away but not super ragged. The top corner and the bottom corner look like a big "bite" has been taken out of it. The middle section is longer but lighter colored too. I'm sure in time the middle part will start to mush and ooze too. Then wear away. Sorry I couldn't post a pic. It kept telling my my file was too big and timing me out.

[maura]

You can post your photo at Photobucket and link to it in a post here; the photo will display full size or you can resize your photo so you can attach it. 

Salt combined with higher temps is a good treatment protocol for ich, but nothing that you've said previously indicates ich.  That salt is some sort of general tonic for fish is a myth with no basis in fact. 

I have no idea about the safety or efficacy of Melafix longterm, but I do know that the primary cause of your problems is overstocking and water quality.  Dumping more Melafix in the tank without addressing either of those issues is not likely to be successful.

More productive energy could be spent on getting accurate water parameters and doing those large serial water changes, with or without gravel vacuuming each time, though gravel vacuuming each time is better. .

[shaylatoby]

a href="http://s888.photobucket.com/albums/ac82/shaylatoby/?action=view&current=DSC00387.jpg" target="_blank">[/url]

Heres a pic of him, hope this helps.

[shaylatoby]

I bought an API freshwater master test kit, one with the test tubes and bottles. I just tested the water and here is what the results were. Ammonia: 0                     
Nitrate: 0
Nitrite: 0
Ph: 7.6 (with the regular ph drops)
      7.4 (with the high range ph drops)

I did the test with the high range drops too cuz the first one was on the higher end of the color matching card. I followed the directions exactly so I think these are accurate. It has been 6 days since my last water change (20-25%) w/ gravel vac. Currently in the tank is the maracyn plus. It was added on (last) saturday, monday and wednesday. I am doing another water change tommorrow (25%) w/vac. I know one of you posted that my nitrates and nitrites shouldn't be 0. I thought 0 was the goal? I'm also alittle confused, am I fully stocked or overstocked? I thought I was fully stocked. On this post was the first time I was told I am overstocked. I could possibly move my rasboras out of that tank into another tank if need be but I hate to do that since they are not real keen on change. I also don't know if they will work for sure in my other tank but that's another question.

[Stefanie]

Nitrites should be 0; Nitrates should not. There's a great sticky post that explains the cycle better:
http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=9402.0


Also, when testing the Nitrates, be sure to shake bottle #2 for at least 2 minutes before adding the drops to the tube. The contents of that bottle "settle" and really need to be shaken up (like your arm feels like it is falling off... ) to give accurate Nitrate results. There's a sticky on that, too with the API kit. (http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=15743.0). Definitely a great step towards better fish health and well worth the investment.

[shaylatoby]

Ok, I read that link and I am confused.... What does it mean then if my nitrates are 0? I set this tank up the first week in June. I've had the current resident fishies in their for 3 months. My rasboras were the first ones in their in June. So what is wrong in my tank if the nitrates are 0 and they should be higher? I know the basics of cycling but I'm kinda overwhelmed with this sick fish and I'm frustrated cuz I thought I was doing everything right. I researched like crazy and I've bought and read at least 5 different fish keeping books and I am always asking questions to anyone who has fish or knows about fish. I am very strict about water changes every week (is always saturday mornings) to the point of I turned down a lunch invite once because I knew I wouldn't be done w/ my tanks in time and I didn't want to hurry,  so we rescheduled. Taking care of my fish is very important to me and so this is worrying me when I hear that I may have caused his tail problem and that one of you that posted said I'm overstocked. I thought I was careful about that and picked my fish so that it would be fully stocked not over. (sigh) 

[maura]

shayla,

I apologize, I used both terms in different posts and didn't explain myself. 

In terms of bioload, meaning the ratio of waste the fish produce to the volume of water, you're fully stocked.

In terms of social needs and swimming room, you're poorly stocked.  Platies get pretty big for a 12 gallon, and harlequin rasboras need to be in schools of 6+ and are active swimmers, they need more swimming room than a 12 provides.  Once you get your water figured out, you need to consider a larger tank or tweaking the occupants of the current tank.   

So "overstocked" wasn't really correct -- poorly stocked in terms of social needs and swimming room is more accurate.  The fact that you're fully stocked in terms of bioload means that you have a smaller margin for error when it comes to water quality.

Now, to your water.  You want 0 for ammonia, 0 for nitrite and measurable nitrate.  That's what cycled means.  Nitrate is the end product of the cycle.  You export the nitrate through water changes and aim to keep it somewhere between 5 - 20 ppm between water changes.

Here's the catch:  0 nitrate means either 1.) you're not testing correctly.  If your arm isn't tired after shaking the reagent bottle and then the test tube, you're not testing correctly or 2.) you're not cycled.   2 is entirely possible if the antibiotics killed your biofilter and you're starting over.  Test for ammonia too, if you get a reading, you're re-cycling and will need to monitor water parameters and do a lot of water changes.

And yes, I can totally sympathize with your frustration.  I believe that you did do a lot of research and try to do this right; it's very hard to do when there's a lot of conflicting and bad information out there.  Please believe me, this gets easier. And more enjoyable. 

[shaylatoby]

I should probably clarify that on the nitrate test the color looked closer to the zero than the next color on the card but it was alittle darker than the zero. So, according to what you said there must be a trace amount of nitrate right? I know the rasboras are not a good choice for my tank but I figured that out after having them for some time. I did have a group of 6 to start with. One just died suddenly about a week after I go it. And it was then that I found out they need more room so they can be in larger groups. I also found out at that time that they are alittle more touchy and aren't the best beginner fish. The other one I lost cuz it has a tumor or something on it's side and it burst and was bleeding and so I euthanized her. I decided that they aren't the fish for me but that I will keep the ones I have and let them be. They seem fine and are really pretty orangish colors so they can't be too stressed. I'm surprised to hear you say platies aren't good in my tank either. Everything I read and heard is that they are a good fish for 10g and up. I am going to try doing some small water changes 2x a week to get all the meds out of the tank and see how my platy does. The best time to test the water is right before a water change right? I'll just keep testing and doing the water changes and go from there.