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Author Topic: Please help, camallanus...  (Read 19393 times)
FishyFace
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2011, 04:42:25 PM »

Hang in there metta!! Hopefully, it'll turn out ok. Good luck to you!
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"Birds and butterflies, rivers and mountains she creates. But you'll never know, the next move she'll make." Mother Earth ~ Within Temptation
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2011, 11:07:49 PM »

Hey Metta, Have you seen this?..   http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=22307.0


 I just found this and read it. Have a look.
I hope things are going better for you and your little wet friends.

 11579
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2011, 03:55:36 PM »

 fish09 Hi BFs, here are my notes from the weekend -

-Cleaned 50g (vac and huge wc).  Everything scrubbed, all plants pulled, new floss put in extra cartridgs etc.

-Found Betta, aka Little Red, with worms. Sad  He and the ADF had previously resided in 10g and were about to moved into their new 5g Eclipse home.

-Returned Betta to 10g with tank divider used.  Will note here I had moved 3 ghost shrimp from the 50g to the 10g approx three weeks ago.  Two shrimp had disappeared soon after...  (btw, have also read that infected copepods with cammullanus come in via aquatic plants - esp those from pond environ.) QT!

-Treated 10g with API General Cure (two treatments) as found contains Praziquantel - probably not much.  Expected nothing which is exactly what happened.  Well, thankful no casualties yet.

-Yesterday, sadly found two female Black Phantom with worms.  Removed both from 50g.  Other fish seem ok and eating.

-Today, after pleading with the Vet re my message left Friday, was able to pick-up some Panacur (Suspension-Fenbendazole) for 10g.

In conclusion, I'm still waiting on the Levamisole to treat the 50g... hopefully it will arrive soon.  I will continue my best to keep the 50g (and 10g) as clean as possible and remove any terribly infected fish (the tetra's were looking very ill thus did not want to leave them in there.)  It is obviously a losing battle right now - I would have written last night but was very sad (and frustrated of course.)  Tonight I will prepare the 10g and give the Panacur treatment.  I have read both successful and disappointing stories regarding this medication but will remain hopeful.

 More later - Hugs, metta b (ps Yes, but thanks, dojolvr Wink )
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2011, 04:19:07 PM »

Look what I found.  More info and something to share... would this be the "Dan" so dearly missed...??
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/discus/messages/17/54242.html?1141422425
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2011, 04:47:42 PM »

That is him.  There are several articles around here written by him also.  And, just going through the archives you will find many more threads in which he imparted his wonderful knowledge.  Quite a guy.
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When in doubt, do a water change.
russ
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« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2011, 06:21:32 PM »

Yes. That is the same link I posted to you a week ago Wink
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Belinda
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« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2011, 06:40:29 PM »

It sounds like you are just now waiting on the meds to arrive ..
follow the instructions given with it exactly ..

When you do treat the big tank treat all of your fish together.

You will want to drop the water level a couple of inches to increase waters splashing.. and aeration to help ease any distress during the treatment phase .
 Afterwards be sure to give the tank a really good vac and cleaning ..any invertebrate snails and shrimp..which can also carry the parasite in the larval stage will probably die during the treatment .
getting the dead invertebrate out of the tank is obviously important.

Then to help the fish pass the dead worms I suggest feeding them blanched and diced up peas.
keep up with the gravel vacs as much as you can .

 From what I have found out from others and reading is..
There is a product that might be available at some LSFs called Bifuran+.it is for internal and external parasites.
Reading the instruction on that med is very important .
 That med is a combination of nitrofurazone and furazolididone .

 Any organics( detritus / mulm) in the tank can lessen the effectiveness of the meds so a very large water change before treatment is recommended.

So it was also suggested to me  just like I suggested to you before. to remove all of the gravel ..and wood . 
and sterilize them ..bleach, boiling and drying in the sun..to make them reusable.  and remember lots of dechlorinater to them afterwards to remove any residual chlorine and chloramine.
Wait until you are sure that the fish are parasite free to put them back into the tank.

Use a fake log for the pleco .. I am sure it will be fine for just a short while without it.

One thing with that medication!!
It can be mixed in with foods ... getting the meds into the fish is very helpful...that is where the parasite is.
It was suggested to me to soak their food in the medication before feeding them it ..you could also add a touch of garlic to it as an appetite stimulator;as sick fish tend to not want to eat.

If you can't find that med then try using Jungle Parasite Clear medicated food.. I have heard good reviews about it.

Stay calm ...it is easier than you think .. good luck!





 
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tntfox
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2011, 06:46:51 PM »

Wow, what an interesting, educational thread this has become.  Metta - I hope you can find a treatment, be it Levamisole or Panacur, to treat this parasite.  I have never (knock on wood) had to deal with a fish parasite; I hope I never do. 

I do hope all of your wet pets make it through this ordeal -- best of luck!

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Remember, my sentimental friend, that a heart is not judged by how much you love, but by how much you are loved by others. -- The Wizard of Oz
metta*bubbles
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2011, 01:11:38 AM »

Right on, Russ - yes, I thought I had read those words before (thanks for all your msgs to me!) and Pat Mary, I can only bet he was a wise gentleman with a very kind heart.  Nope, you are never too old to have a happy childhood...  I love that.  Wink

I cleaned the 10g (again) and did a 80% wc - up and running for a bit before I added the Panacur tonight.  Instead of putting the med directly in the tank as the bottle instructed, I added into a med size container with lid and shook well.  Then added some food and let soak for a bit.  I didn't have anything special -a few betta bites, pinch of flakes and dried bloodworms.  Then put the contents into the tank - very cloudy stuff.  The measurement of med was 1cc per vet's directions.  I have read approx 3cc (ml) dose used on other sites but decided against adding more.  The continuing care to leave med in for 24 hrs and then a 30% wc, repeat in 7 days and then again the following week for a total of three treatments.  I have the tetra with the angelfish - 2/3 space of the tank.  They didn't care to eat but the Betta did.  I have two filters running in the tank with a little sponge media left (no carbon) - a small internal on one side and whisper on other.  I left space for some splashing and also added a small airstone as well.  Nothing remarkable to note right now...  just time to hurry - and wait.

In the meanwhile - re the 50g.  I probably will leave everything that's in there for now, Belinda - which isn't much - just the pieces of Malay wood (one is too large to boil) and the sand.  Thank you so much for all the info and suggestions - wow!  You have been researching for me, haven't you??? xox!  From what I understand the Levamisole is suppose to thoroughly destroy this thing (it was noted ok to leave the plants but I didn't care to.)  I probably have almost 50% of the sand out anyway, since the multiple vacs and removing the plants as depth not so important.  And more will come out with the continuing cleaning - I am saving it in hopes of using again (and this along with everything will be sanitized.) 

Well folks, that's the nightly news from the world of nematodes...  moon g'nite and my gratitude to all who are with me on this journey, alone again this week so very thankful to have you.
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2011, 01:19:17 PM »

 fish09 Update
10g - water only slightly cloudy now, all fish fairly active and swimming.  Observed about a dozen red thread "clippings" on the bare tank floor - maybe 1/4" long - on angel and tetra side.  Worms might be clearing up somewhat with tetra - but I unfortunately do not see any significant changes with red protrusions on angel nor betta yet - still a bit of milky-stringy discharge.  Nothing notable on betta side floor.  Would like to try a small dose of medicated food again with garlic added as suggested to aid in digestion but not quite sure how safe it would be to give more just yet as 24 hr treatment time hasn't expired.  Any thoughts?  Belinda, tried two lfs for Jungle Parasite Clear - may head into Brantford tomorrow... yes, also heard good things about peas to help pass dead worms.  I don't think I have ever prayed for dead worms before...  and the fish bum watching is really gettting old.  Smiley trying, metta
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Belinda
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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2011, 05:39:51 PM »

It sounds like you are staying on top of things ..
I would feed them medicated food after you do the water change.

 Clean up any dead worms as you see them .. you don't want the fish to eat those.

It may take a while for the fish to pass all of the worms..  just be patient with that..

 
   I don't think I have ever prayed for dead worms before...  and the fish bum watching is really gettting old.  Smiley
biggrin Oh.. I thing you will be checking out fish bums or quite some time... in your tank.... in others tanks...... in stores.... rofl
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Netti
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2011, 06:30:27 PM »

I had to LOL when I read about the "bum watching" too!  lol
The dead worms are at least a sign that these meds are working!!!
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2011, 06:48:22 PM »

Best to  biggrin
Than to  crying
Here wormy, wormy, wormy - I've got something in my pocket...  just for you... makemyday
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2011, 06:52:10 PM »

You are doing such a good job!  You are also teaching us how to do this.   Smiley
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2011, 06:12:51 PM »

Thank you, Pat Mary and all of you who keep wishing me the best.  Belinda, you have been wonderful in all your help and suggestions.  xox!  Wink

I'm again sad to report there has no been change in the 10g quarantine.  All fish are alive but the worms remain - even with a second treatment of Panacur with medicated food soak.  The Betta is looking very poorly in color and weight.  I've done another tank cleaning with wc and will just let all be for now.  Unfortunately, I found one of the female black neon tetra with signs of the parasite in the 50g.  I think I will leave her be as well - no sense removing any more fish.  I'm waiting patiently on the Levamisole HCL which was sent out on the 22nd.  As Charles noted, I hope it won't be too late.  In the meanwhile, hubby is home and tomorrow will hit every farm store he can find in the area.

To Those New reading and who haven't yet heard the advice of the wonderful Senior Members here ...  **Quarantine your fish - three months best.  It sounds terribly long but if you have a nice quarantine tank set up it should be just as joyful to observe your new friends here for a time.  Read the page at Badman's re setting up a quarantine tank - if you have money for this hobby then there is no excuse not to have a second tank for this purpose.  **Clean and quarantine your plants and remember parasites can easily come in via snails and shrimp.  **Pay close attention when buying your fish from any lfs.  Observe them closely, bring those magnifying or reading glasses and check them out very carefully.  **Finally educate yourself on the disease page - know what to look for.

I can only find some peace in my heart now right by trying to help others.  I said back when that I wouldn't wish this on anybody...  please do take your time and be patient, it is so worth it.  Things can go very wrong easily.  If I picked this up here, then this nasty worm is out there.  I also read sometimes this parasite won't show itself until the infected fish comes home and is properly fed bc the fish has been living a rather starve diet at the lfs.  What infuriates me - there is obviously a well-known medication, possibly cure out there that is so hard to get.  If you can find some get it - keep it on hand, just in case...  Ok, all for now -
Hugs and thanks again to my Badman Family here, the best!  metta b  fish09
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GB
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2011, 07:08:08 PM »

..what Pat M said. We hope to learn from your terrible experience....

Good luck, MettaB!

GB
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Belinda
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2011, 09:30:06 PM »

Keep your chin up Metta!!

You are doing the right things so far ..
 The more reading on this that I do the more I am learning . It is a thing I would never want to have to deal with.

 I completely agree on doing good and proper QT..
It is a terrible thought that all your work and effort of setting up a nice tank could be wiped out or seriously damaged because of something like this.

Good luck!
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2011, 02:16:13 PM »

 fish09  Here is a report I found very informative on this topic.  Please respect the author and contents etc.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/fa/fa09100.pdf
note p.5, p.8

metta b

btw - I am hoping that by removing the obviously infected fish, repetitive tank maintenance/cleaning and eliminating a possibly high population of copepods just maybe I have at least slowed the progress / life-cycle of the parasite until medication arrives.

Unfortunately, we still cannot find levamisole hcl or a generic alternative in our area (re otc domestic animal de-worming medications.)
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Belinda
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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »

A very informative read!!!!!!

 I agree breaking up the life-cycle of the parasite by eradicating any secondary host is vital at this point.
thanks  for sharing this with everybody .
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« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2011, 04:43:14 PM »

For something that is that common in fish you would think they have an appropriate medicine available to us hobbyists.
I am definitely going to quarantine any new fish!!!!! 
Metta, your dilemma would be a perfect read for any newbie! I hope that it is true, what they say about shared troubles being easier to carry. I wish we all could help more!  fish09
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Karen
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« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2011, 10:40:59 AM »

reading and learning.....

Updates?
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 03:06:19 PM »

 fish09  Hello Badman Friends!  Sorry it has been awhile and thank you for your continued thoughts and concerns...  I've had a few friends check on me on this thread (who aren't into the hobby) and they are just amazed at the support and kindness shown here.  If something positive can attest to this site (re how we treat newbies) well, there you go! Wink

Sadly the 10g qt was put to rest on Sunday.  The fish that hadn't passed were gently euthanized.  This was a total of five fish, including the angel and betta who had really hung in there.  The last fish I had found with signs of camallanus was the black neon tetra which I decided to move into the qt on Friday.

Regarding the 50g, another huge water change, vac and cleaning.  I also added a new filter cartridge to the emperor.  The unit had been thoroughly cleaned last week with new floss filter in the empty cartridges.  I have left the bio-wheels alone to keep media intact.  I'm also keeping an eye on the nitrates as with removing all the plants some time ago - but all readings have been in good numbers thus far.

Although I have not seen any signs of the parasite on the other fish, I decided to medicate their food as most continue to have good appetites.  I've learned things get grim when they decide not to eat - the first sign of trouble.  The following is the method I have been using from notes gathered at various sites:

- Dose .01ml Panacur (Fenbendazole 10%) per 1g of food. Medicine was added to frozen bloodworms (thawed and drained ) and dry shrimp pellets for approx 1 hr.  Fresh garlic added - minced/pressed, squeezing a few drops of liquid into the mixture.  Feeding 1 small portion to fish (via tweezers to control feeding) once per evening for three days.  I also included fresh baby spinach to aid in the diet.

Since medicating, the fish appear to be really active, healthy and continue to eat well - including the veggies.  So with this news I am thrilled.  I now take the "good" days for what they bring and grateful for what I have.

The Levamisole has not arrived yet.  I'm having a friend in the States purchase Flatworm Exit, Seachems Focus and Garlic Guard for me - which I could not find here (due to the ingredients.)  Now, if things continue to go well I will not treat the tank.  I still believe best for nature to take its course, take it slow -  and as long as things appear to be going ok I'd rather not take chances. 

My one word of advice, Do NOT bath treat fish in Fenbendazole (as I did in the 10g.)  From my readings, Fenbendazole is only meant to be added to the food (ingested and metabolized) as long as fish still have an appetite - however, Levamisole and Flubendazole (absorbed via skin and gills) can be used as a bath/tank treatment.  My fish in qt were beyond eating so I'm sure I would have lost them regardless and I did not have the other two medications to try.

I will also note (again!) since removing the infected fish and probable hosts, and heavy wc/cleaning seems to have at least slowed the occurrence of infected fish - I would recommend to anyone without available meds to go ahead and quarantine and not just leave them in the main tank as many sites suggest.  My opinion only of course - remember just a newbie here.  Smiley

Your thoughts and feedback (or questions) always welcome.  I continue to remain very hopeful!
Hugs, mb
 

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Belinda
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 08:11:24 PM »

I am sorry about you having to make that decision to euthanize .. Sad
It is a hard one to make ..It was a wise decision.

I would still consider all of your fish contaminated from exposure to it, but hopefully they do not have to suffer from it; and that it will be completely eradicated from your tank .
if you go 3 months without any signs of it I would say your on your way to success,  six months disease free then you will know for sure that you beat it.

A word of caution about those other meds .. they themselves can be harmful .

I really wish that Levamisole arrives .. It's your choice ..but personally I would use it . It has been proven to work with this particular parasite.

 Continue to be diligent with your QT protocols .
I have read of people treating their tanks and getting overconfident about it only to have it return a few months later because or re-infestation via buckets, nets, or pythons that had not been cleaned and or allowing snails etc to return to the tank.

 Routinely disinfect with bleach all equipment used in and around the tank .
Be extremely diligent about remove and disposing of any hidden snails or baby snails.. don't allow any intermediary host to live in that tank.

BTW>> Thanks for the dosing instructions.... the correct dose is important.... too little and it is worthless.... too much it is to stressful on the fish.

I would continue to feed the fish the medicated food for a quite some time as well.
Possibly even to go as far as feeding them the meds three days a week. for at least one month; and then maybe a three day period once per month for the next 3 months.
Three days because day one they might not like the food day two they might pick at it and by day three they will be hungry enough to eat enough of the meds to be of benefit to them.
Somebody else with some experience with this might know better ..

You may be just a newbie but you are fast becoming a wise aquarist ! Wink
good luck with your remaining fish....





 
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dang
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 09:58:13 PM »

  Maybe I missed it, but I find myself intensely interested in where the infection came from.  Years ago when I fed my fish a lot of wild caught minnows they contracted a number of external parasites.  But I never had any problems with internal ones.
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metta*bubbles
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2011, 12:02:12 AM »

I came back to check on replies and couldn't find the thread!  I'm happy this topic was deemed important enough to pin.  Thank you.

There are quite a lot of issues with this out there when you start looking.  Like I said, if I picked it up here (and I've done everything via popular lfs') then it is out there.  I read when the immune system is down, or there is environmental stress then a seemingly harmless parasite can overcome the fish which makes obvious sense.  I had been on vacation - the tank became good and dirty with plenty of plants - newer fish, a few snails and shrimp, obviously other creatures were thriving.  Perhaps an innocent parasite became a monster because things were simply out of sorts...  who knows.

Anyway, I've also read that camallanus nepatodes must have a secondary host but then again read elsewhere this is not always the case, or they do but have a short swim life-cycle.  The more you read, the more consuming and disagreeing the info is.  The last site I posted was a decent report.  I've mentioned the importance of qt - and watching the numbers of copepods, cyclops other invertebrate that could carry this.  Also, of course, feeding live foods.  Gosh, only a few months ago I just had a betta and a few tetra in a 10g (wrong btw!), fretting over a moss ball...  life was so simple then. Wink

Frustrating as "grey" the info is regarding the nature and behavior of this parasite, so are the proper medications and treatment methods (and the whole mess of even trying to find one!)  The medicated feeding I am using isn't written down in stone as being a wonder cure.  I just took bits of info from here and there and with that trying to make something work with what I have...  it is all risky business.  The dose may indeed be too much or too little.

Belinda, thank you again for your input.  I hadn't planned out a schedule for the feeding but knew I would need to continue treatments even after the three initial doses.  It definitely should be repeated in a week regardless and then scheduled monthly after.  It's so hard not knowing how the fish are being affected so I'm trying to be careful.  I also have not ruled out the Levamisole treatment and agree with the months it is surely going to take to possibly manage this - if even given that chance.  Levamisole is the main ingredient in Flatworm Exit from what I understand - but I do not know the dose/treatment method with this particular product.  All medications scare me to death - especially those noting the product includes a chemical known to cause cancer in the State of California.  Really, only California knows this??  REALLY??

By the way,  I was happy to hear from you, Dang.  This thread needs to become an aquarist's CSI re this worm so if anyone learns something new or interesting please post here!  If interested I currently have plenty of frozen specimens for autopsy?  Again, better to smile than cry - I promised the little guy we would have burial services in the back yard (thus, why the fish are still in the freezer...)

Take care and thanks again for being here, metta b
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