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Author Topic: Ram help please  (Read 7590 times)
Afri
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« on: November 11, 2013, 09:30:39 AM »

Having read the profile on the Ram, I still have some questions.  One is size:  In one spot they give size as "up to 4 inches" and another they say "2 inches".  Which is more likely?  Also, is the Bolivian Ram closer the 'wild type' variety, while the German Ram was developed in captivity?  Or are they just different because they come from different locations?.  Are there differences in hardiness between the 2 varieties?  Also, I've read that they like soft water.  Mine is very alkaline, but I've done fine with lots of fish which prefer soft water.  My LFS guy says that is because so many fish come from farms in FL which have alkaline water, so soft-water fish will generally be OK in our water.  He has bred neons in our water.  That being said, if I got a pair, is it likely they would breed?  Background:  They would be a in a 55 gallon tank with a large school of Serpae Tetras.  The tank is in transition from an mainly Asian tank to a SA tank, and currently also has a Redtail Shark (which is young so will probably stick around) and a very old peppered cory and a Danio that I have been expecting to die for a long time.  He is old and has developed a hunch back.  His schoolmates all bit it quite some time ago.  Thanks all you kind Badpeople out there!
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Wheels on the Bus
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 10:55:44 AM »

I would go with 4 inches over 2 inches. Wink As to the rest, I seem to remember that rams are more on the sensitive side of fish- they like their water specifications to be spot on. I don't think you would get them to breed in less than optimal conditions.
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Claire
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 11:40:08 AM »

As to German blue rams; I had them in a 52 gal, soft water, heavily planted, pH 6.8, 27C tank and couldn't get them to LIVE never mind breed!
We tried quite a few times, from different sources, and they rarely made it past quarantine.
The Bolivian rams are hardier than the German but not as colourful.
I don't know how they would fair with such a territorial fish as a red tailed shark.
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russ
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 12:16:36 PM »

Yes, they would be up to 4 inches total length. The Bolivian Ram (Microgeophagus alatispinosa) from natural waters of Mamoré and Guaporé river drainages in Bolivia and Brazil. The Blue Ram (Microgeophagus ramirezi) from rivers in Venezuela, and Columbia. Bolivian Rams generally are slightly bigger that the Blues, but I have seen some pretty large Blues that I estimate at almost 4 inches total length. Contrary to popular belief, Rams do need calcium and magnesium , but water can be a delicate balance of general hardness. For Rams, don't equate water to being soft or hard.

The German Blue Ram was not developed in captivity....lol


* BCA02.jpg (2.99 KB, 76x70 - viewed 389 times.)
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Afri
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 09:20:47 PM »

Thanks all.  Russ, Could you please elaborate on the need for Ca and Mg apart from the issue of hardness?  And after I posted I realized I should have mentioned I had a red finned shark named Buddy and that he has been pretty much a pussy cat.  He has a log that he has always liked.  I just got him a bigger wooden one.
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russ
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 11:57:09 PM »

They need it for osmoregulation.
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Afri
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 06:05:19 PM »

Thanks!
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jerryfox
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 08:10:45 PM »

I would go with 4 inches over 2 inches. Wink As to the rest, I seem to remember that rams are more on the sensitive side of fish- they like their water specifications to be spot on. I don't think you would get them to breed in less than optimal conditions.
Can you keep rams in hard water at all? Thanks confused
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russ
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 11:34:34 PM »

Afri,

You posted another reply in before I had a chance to finish posting this reply. Soft water or hard water; it still sums up to GH (permanent or total hardness).

"Can you keep rams in hard water at all? Thanks"

What are your concerns with the water that 'you' can provide? Define 'hard water'?


A little further explanation of my first reply: " but water can be a delicate balance of general hardness."

Many folks/hobbyists are under the impression that a high GH is associated with an over abundance of nutrient and mineral load and that is bad for the fish. In a manner of fashion, that can be true. All freshwater sources carry varying quantities of calcium and magnesium. In an open environment, such as rivers and lakes (with rivers or stream flowing in and out) important minerals are constantly being replenished. In a closed environment, such as an aquarium, they are being used up, but not replenished. More than just calcium and magnesium contribute to GH Partial water changes can replenish some of calcium and magnesium lost, but water sources and delivery systems are different from communities and regions.




* BCA02.jpg (2.99 KB, 76x70 - viewed 365 times.)
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jerryfox
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2013, 08:23:36 PM »

Afri,

You posted another reply in before I had a chance to finish posting this reply. Soft water or hard water; it still sums up to GH (permanent or total hardness).

"Can you keep rams in hard water at all? Thanks"

What are your concerns with the water that 'you' can provide? Define 'hard water'?


A little further explanation of my first reply: " but water can be a delicate balance of general hardness."

Many folks/hobbyists are under the impression that a high GH is associated with an over abundance of nutrient and mineral load and that is bad for the fish. In a manner of fashion, that can be true. All freshwater sources carry varying quantities of calcium and magnesium. In an open environment, such as rivers and lakes (with rivers or stream flowing in and out) important minerals are constantly being replenished. In a closed environment, such as an aquarium, they are being used up, but not replenished. More than just calcium and magnesium contribute to GH Partial water changes can replenish some of calcium and magnesium lost, but water sources and delivery systems are different from communities and regions.




Where I live here there is only hard water not soft water with acidity at all.That is why my tank has a lot of calcium inside on the tank which is hard to remove.
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Tara7
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2013, 02:25:37 PM »

Quite amazingly (!) since GBR's are reputed to be very sensitive to water conditions, I purchased 2 of them on a hunch in my local LFS about 4 months ago and now they are HUGE! I feed them and their tank mates redeye and serpae tetras mainly frozen bloodworms and brine shrimp and flakes. All seem to get along fine... happy
I do take great care of my water conditions. 55g planted.
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Sully
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 12:20:10 PM »

are the ramerizi 2" or 4"?  Depends upon how you measure.  If you measure length to the end of the tail--you will think you have a 3-4" ram.  The standard for determining length, however is to measure to the base of the caudal peduncle (sounds sort of kinky, doesn't it?).  A ramerizi, properly measured that hits 2" is a good sized ram.  4" not as likely--rare even.  It would be a monster ram--one for the record books.

That explains the size range you see when discussing not only the ram but most fish.  Why, you ask, do we measure to the caudal peduncle and not the tip of the tail?  In the wild the tail can vary in size as a result of environmental issues--disease, combat, or some other form of damage.  So, those clever scientific types wanted to come up with a way to standardize for comparative and sharing purposes.  The base of the caudal peduncle was chosen for a simple reason--if you go past that you will be looking at dead fish and not the live specimens and if you choose the tip of the tail--well you will never be able to accurately catalog and clearly communicate about specimens.

German Blue Rams are, indeed, Microgeophagus ramerizi.  That "common name" was initially given to a strain bred for color.  Not that which you would find in wild caught specimens.  Enhanced for the hobby is the way to think when you hear German Blue or any of the host of trait specific common names.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 12:31:18 PM by Sully » Logged
russ
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2013, 08:53:23 PM »

Thanks Sully for the clarification on measuring length. I think what you stated should develop into the recommended norm for old and newly informed members to relate when talking about fish length. I even still use the "total length" at times and I also need to remember this.
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2013, 09:11:59 PM »

I never understood why the entire length (including tail) wasn't used.  This explained it perfectly.  Thanks, Sully.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 02:02:03 PM »

Thanks Sully for the clarification on measuring length. I think what you stated should develop into the recommended norm for old and newly informed members to relate when talking about fish length. I even still use the "total length" at times and I also need to remember this.

Russ, you geezer, are you intimating I am old?  still young at heart and mind.  the body may argue--pushing 60 is still a young guy by my standard.
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russ
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 10:13:06 PM »

Lol, not old....long-time members. But hey, as long we are vertical and above room temperature, thats what counts.
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