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Author Topic: Seachem Prime  (Read 5697 times)
Gregg
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« on: February 10, 2016, 03:24:10 PM »

I just purchased some Seachem Prime after learning not to use anything containing aloe vera as a protection coat for the fish.  I looked  it up of course, but that did not answer this question, if using it at water changes, does one still need to use water conditioner? (also picked up white clouds to make two larger shoals, large ones, bigger than any I own.)

Gregg
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2016, 03:34:05 PM »

Prime is a water conditioner so you only need to use it.

When purchasing new fish, you are quarantining them instead of just adding them to your main tank, right?
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2016, 03:50:06 PM »

Hi Pat Mary,

I wish I had a quarantine tank but do not.  I keep them in the bag and slowly take water from it and add tank water with a turkey baster.  I do this at least 3X and let the fish bag hang in the tank at least 20 minutes each time.  Yes it still introduces what may be there, but far less.  I realize if the fish are infected they will remain the same. With SP so I take it you add it as the directions say?

Gregg
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Karen
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2016, 06:27:15 PM »

If you don't have the ability to QT, you might seriously consider if you have the ability to get new fish at all.  A 5 gallon tupperware tote can be a QT tank that gets used for a couple of weeks and then put back in the attic full of old clothes. 

Just follow the directions on the bottle of prime.
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2016, 06:30:54 PM »

Yes, follow the directions.

Quarantining new fish is just as important as water changes.  I know that you want to do things right so listen to what I have to say carefully.

Fish go through a lot before they ever get to your home.  They are taken from their ponds and packed into bags; put onto a plane and make the trip to this (or another) country.  They go through Customs , are picked up by the distributor (or are driven there).  They are sorted and sent to various LFS's.  There they are put into new smallish tanks with new (and strange to them) tankmates.  You come along and decide to buy one.  He is netted out of the tank and put into a bag.  You put him into your car and drive home.  That fish feels the motor running and doesn't know what is happening.  Now, you start to acclimate him to your tank.  When you think that he is ready, you add him.  He is now in another new tank with new tankmates.  Talk about stress!  With all that has happened to him, his immune system is all out of whack.  Within a day or two, he comes down with Ich or some other disease.  It's contagious like measles for fish.  Soon all of your fish have Ich.

What should be done is to set up a container (a tank or a Rubbermaid container.  Either is fine).  It doesn't need a substrate but does need a filter.  Keep the fish in there for 4-6 weeks so that you can be sure that he will not bring either a disease or parasite to your main tank.  The fish will use that time to get used to your water and maintenance schedule.  

If you read through old posts here, you will find MANY that are asking for help because they did not do a proper QT.  Just a warning for you.  Smiley


ninja'd by Karen.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2016, 07:41:11 PM »

I know you all are correct, I know it.  So far I have had no problems, pure luck surely, but with everybody telling me how important it is I promise I'll try to st something up.  With a small # of fish I assume I can use something of 5 gallons or what I can arrange and simply use water from the tanks with a sponge filter.  If this isn't right tell me.  With this last bunch of fish I can see it's importance.  I went to a close Petsmart and bought all the white clouds they had, 7, 4 went to my 20 high and 3 to my 15 long.  So now the # of WC in the 20 are 11, and the 15, eight.  From wheelchair height, (I was hurt badly as a BLM smokejumper 30 years ago, broke my back in a fall,  it's all OK, still fit and lean,) I could not see the fish well nut they did look large and plump.  Well, there were the poorest lot of fish I have ever bought, pale and bloated.  One is already looking bad in the 20.  It did bring out the white cloud happiness with the others, displaying, being together, etc. If ever I thought I needed a QT tank it is now. Wish me luck. The Prime I hope works as advertised.

Thanks, Gregg
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2016, 11:32:42 PM »

So,a quarantine tank. It takes time to cycle, so I suppose you do just use tank water.  The sponge filter would not have a bacterial colony.  I usually don't long term plan on fish acquisition, so what are the things I don't know to start one?

Thanks, Gregg
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2016, 03:41:27 AM »

Most people run a small filter on their main tank and when its needed just move it over to the quarantine tank...Instant cycle!

When done with quarantine period move it back to your main tank (Unless you encounter diseases)

Just be aware that if you buy a new small filter for this purpose it will take a couple of weeks running on your main tank to colonise with good bacteria....
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2016, 04:35:20 PM »

Your bacteria colony does not live in the water column...it lives in your filter.  Gunnered is right about how to cycle a QT or hospital tank.  Just about all of us run an extra filter in our main tanks and transfer it when needed.  You don't need an actual tank.  You can use a Rubbermaid tote.  (much cheaper)
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 06:58:03 PM »

Thank you, that is what I'll do.  What did happen now was that in my 15 I noticed an older beautiful WC with a tiny patch of white near it's operculum. If it is ich it is the first time in years I've dealt with that.  I looked up my options and did the most minor, fearing for the health of the bacteria and my plants, which are really doing well in a low light situation. So I did a 5 gallon water change and vacuum of the gravel, (and did find a baby java fern that came off a mother leaf as well a sprig of water wisteria growing emersed.) and put the guy in a small  plastic container with about a bit more than a gallon and ran a tube with airstone and a betta heater I bought for a triops that I never used, the type with a black plate that sits on the bottom, terrible reviews, and on a piece of tile to not burn the plastic.  Well, it was the best I could do at the time with what I had.  He's thrown around but not with the other fish.  I know the life cycle of that thing and that I may have more infected.  I do not believe that a small male platy and those ugly white clouds I just bought gave it to him that soon.  A toddler grandson is napping in there now so I am unsure if the heater id frying my fish or even working.  1 of the 4 WC I added to the 20 tall is ill with a light patch on his side.  I'll just monitor this.  The rest are still bloated looking, very large, dull,  but I must give them a chance. UGH!

Gregg
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 07:21:05 PM »

There is more. For ever all my fish have done the dart to the bottom or an object and just as soon flash away.  I have seen wild fish do this as well.  My shiners would do it at times often.  I read in your ICH advice about this.  Like I said, I'll keep an eye on these tanks. Some older very loved fish are in both.

Gregg
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 10:12:14 AM »

Oh does this ever end.  It looks like 1.) I may not or ever have room for a QT tank.  Thinking of having the local fish shop do one for me for a price.  2.) I do not want to do a chemical treatment in either tank if it looks like I may have to.  The plants now are the issue. 3.) It has been so long since I had ich I don't remember the consequences. Would ich kill all the fish, and if it did  how long would it take to insure the tank is safe to restock? 4.) With frequent water changes and removing sick fish to my small container could I eventually eliminate it. I know I'm grasping for straws here. By the way the synopsis by Badman's on disease is one of the best I'v ever come across.

Gregg
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 12:16:27 PM »

Gregg.  Take a deep breath and relax your shoulders. 

Here is something from our library.  Dan was the best.       http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=1024.0


As to your comment about never having room for a QT tank, you can put it anywhere.  It's only for 4-6 weeks unless you find a disease or parasite.  Why do you say you can never have one?


How many plants do you have? 
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 12:51:24 PM »

First, I agree whole heartedly with Pat Mary, re Q tanks. I have had ich twice in 15 plus ears with 15- 20 tanks. Both timed it came in on new fish. One time I failed to use a Q tank and it cost me not only the new fish but some of the existing fish in the tank. The other time it was store bought tetras and danios. 17/18 fish died in the Q turned Hospital tank,but no existing fish perished

This a decent read re ich. I would note it omits a few facts. Firstly, fish who survive ich are generally"immune" to reinfection for some time afterwards. There are way more treatments for ich than you can imagine.* Unless "cured" ich can wipe out a tank.

Quote
Freshwater Ich
Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.

White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).

Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.

Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.

Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.

Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.

Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.
from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/disease-fw.html#ich


*For all those who might be interested, here is a 2011 review paper published in 2012 about more potential ich treatments than all of us combined knew existed. It includes many that were not effective. It is one of the more comprehensive treatments of this subject I have run across. There are a whole lot of technical terms and scientific stuff, but the tables tell the story.

An assessment of the use of drug and non-drug interventions in the treatment of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Fouquet, 1876, a protozoan parasite of freshwater fish
PICÓN-CAMACHO, S M; MARCOS-LOPEZ, M; BRON, J E; SHINN, A P.    Parasitology139.2 (Feb 2012): 149-90

http://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/10147/1/Picon%20Camacho%20et%20al%20Parasitology%20Ich%20chemo%20review.pdf
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Gregg
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 03:09:41 PM »

And, thanks! I have not read it all yet but promise, really do, to do so.  I dispatched all the new wc and so very sadly also an old beautiful male from each tank, well crap.  As I was changing the lone fellow's water he leaped out, not to be discovered for several minutes, oh come on now.  He wants to live I'll give him that.  The QT tank.  I have one tank in the family room and yes, there is room (I say so, my wife says no,) and in the room with the 15 long it is my combo fishing equipment, fly tying (tons of stuff), gun room, an extensive library, and many of my outdoor clothes. As it is I have cords and extension cords with adapters, looks so unkempt, not me.  I am thinking of clearing away all my thousands of issues of periodicals and, phew. I'd have room for a nice QT tank. Just have to do it. Now it looks like I have reading to do.

Thank you all, Gregg
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2016, 09:46:43 PM »

 I read it all and thanks.  "An assessment..." demanded a chemistry knowledge for most, not all of it, but what it did not do for me was give me practical information, such as this much per gallon, under what conditions and I did not read much there about the effect on inverts and plants.  I was asked what plants I have. In the 15 long I have a very valued matt of Monosolenium tenerum, (it took a long time to establish,) two java ferns, a bunch of java moss and guppy grass (Najas g.,) nice floating pennywort with water wisteria and a banana plant.  The 20 tall has less wattage (same hood size) but has 3 anubias, 2 nana and one unknown, 2 windelov java ferns, floating pennywort and water wisteria.  Gosh, I am not treating yet and will or will not pay for that.  I like could sue Petsmart but I alone am responsible for not having a QT tank and bear responsibility for that.  I know that I am the master of my fate here.  The little leaper in the tiny sort if QT tank is still with me.

Gregg
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2016, 12:04:29 PM »

Ich Attack by Kordon is supposed to be safe for plants and will not permanently stain your silicone or ornaments.  The key is to start the treatment as soon as possible after finding Ich in your tank so I don't know if it will still work for you or not.  Good luck.

http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/organic-herbal-preventatives-and-treatments-2/ich-attack-disease-treatment#compatabilities-toxicity!
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2016, 01:56:40 PM »

I use Quick Cure from Mardel.

Quote
Quick Cure is excellent for freshwater and marine aquariums.It is a powerful anti-parasite medication that cures Ick typically within 48 hours! It also helps fight against protozoan parasite infestations. Quick Cure is safe for use with live plants. 4 oz. treats 2,000 gallons[/quote
from http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-medication/quick-cure.html

Quote
QuICK Cure® is a scientifically formulated liquid medication that cures ick in two days and cures lymphocystis in one week. For both fresh and saltwater use

Ingredients – Formalin, Malachite Green

DIRECTIONS/DOSAGE

SHAKE WELL BEFORE USING. SQUEEZE BOTTLE GENTLY.

Before administering any medication, it is wise to check your water quality levels to ensure they are within their acceptable levels.

Remove carbon from filter before use.

Add 2 drops per gallon daily (do not discontinue filtration) for all fish except those in the tetra group.
FOR TETRAS: Add 1 drop per gallon daily.
FOR MARINE FISH: Add 2 drops per gallon daily in a bare aquarium.

Replace carbon 24 hours after last treatment. Maximum dosage: 3 daily treatments. If further medication is required, perform a 25% water change before administering another treatment cycle. Water will turn blue during treatment. This is a temporary condition and will disappear in a few days. Change 50% of water if fish show any signs of distress during treatment or an accidental overdose of this product occurs.

Can discolor silicone in glass aquariums.
fromhttp://fritzaquatics.com/product/quick-cure/

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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2016, 02:16:21 PM »

I read on one link that Quick Clear is not safe for plants and may stain sealant.  But, when I tried to go back to link it, I couldn't find it.  question  Anyway, Gregg is concerned about his plants being compromised.   Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2016, 03:32:38 PM »

This is the most caring site I've ever been involved with.

Thank you for the information now!  I ordered Ich Attack by Kordon but had to go slowest post, so I'll just hope for the best. I may be too slow but one tank, the 15 with the most plants have fish showing no iffy signs of attack, the 20 possibly that rubbing thing.  TwoTankAmin, if I am too late perhaps this would be the way to go.  Doing water changes now, and watching and worrying. My wife said she'll help me clean and organize the room to find room for a QT tank.  By the way, lots of sometimes conflicting information on what one should be like.

Gregg
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2016, 07:15:55 PM »

Hello,

This is the room I have to work with to obtain my Q tank. One corner,<a href="http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/lv2crp/media/006_zpsi7oypatk.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s392/lv2crp/006_zpsi7oypatk.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 006_zpsi7oypatk.jpg"/>[/url]
another,<a href="http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/lv2crp/media/008_zpsfgmfukng.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s392/lv2crp/008_zpsfgmfukng.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 008_zpsfgmfukng.jpg"/>[/url]
yet another,<a href="http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/lv2crp/media/010_zps9hpwff8o.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s392/lv2crp/010_zps9hpwff8o.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 010_zps9hpwff8o.jpg"/>[/url]
You get the idea.  Most of this belongs in another genre and thread perhaps, but it shows the work I have to do to make room for the Q tank. I will get it done but not soon.  I have this white cloud in a tiny q tank, it's 4th. day here, and it once leaped out and once was stuck in the water change tube until I blew it out.  It feeds, has survived, I want to return it to the larger tank, when? <a href="http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/lv2crp/media/011_zpsujjtigva.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s392/lv2crp/011_zpsujjtigva.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 011_zpsujjtigva.jpg"/>[/url]
He no longer has a spot but is a bit beat up. I have it somewhat heated (74F) with a betta heater and once used a massive dose of salted water in a water change.  No more of that though.  Keeping up water changes in both tanks and no spots on fish there now.  Have  Kordon Ich Attack that may be here in a week.

Gregg
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2016, 07:33:29 PM »

In my mind it doesn't seem to be a problem to clear a 2 foot area to put a QT in.  You don't have to move  everything, just enough to be able to fit the QT. 

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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2016, 09:54:54 AM »

Good morning Pat Mary,  I almost had to chuckle were it not so serious.  There really isn't any room, thus the tiny tank you see in an awkward place.  In a nutshell it is about my standing chair in the picture. This chair stands me up and it is how I maintain my tanks, as well as spend the hours I do tying flies on a chest high work station.  Well, I began to develope pressure sores on one knee after months using the chair. So I began to tie at the table, simply accumulated stuff, and only use the chair to do my tanks as I spend far less time doing that.  I must forgo that passion now for a bit and clean it all up.   I do not know where the outlets are and removing my books will find them,  the ones now are a dangerous mess.  I have a plan, and it may not take long, must rid myself of about 1500 periodicals and about a quarter ton, really, of fly tying material  and so much, well, crap. I can do it. Some of those shelves you see are not designed for water weight.In any case I needed to do this and your observation about no QT tank is my impetus, so thank you! I still wonder when to reintroduce the wc back, might it have immunity?

Gregg
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