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Author Topic: Ich,Salt and carbon filter  (Read 1872 times)
WindDancer
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« on: May 15, 2016, 10:04:04 AM »

I am an aquaponics person (7 mo) and brand new to this forum.  I found ich recently on my Japanese Fantail Goldfish.  I removed all fish to hospital tanks in the house so I can raise the temp and treat with aquarium salt. Aquaponics will be cleaned and will be a do-over. I understand that you need to remove the carbon from the filters in the aquariums when treating with medication. I bought a pkg of blue filter material to insert in the pumps so I could leave the carbon out.  Aftrr reading Badman's write-up on treating ich I was confused.  If just treating with heat and salt, is it better to leave the carbon in or just use the blue filter material?  Or, should I just rum the pump by itself to move/oxygenate the water? These are my first aquariums.  My aquaponics used 150 gal tank and was set up differently.  I filled the aquariums indoors with water from the big tank last night and will start treatment today.
Thanks,
WindDancer
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 10:56:25 AM »

THe only time that carbon is needed is when removing meds from the aquarium.  If carbon is used in any other circumstance, in my opinion it is just a waste of money so just take it out.

I am a little confused by a portion of your post, though.  Were there other fish in with your fantail when you discovered the Ich?  If so, I would consider all of the fish that were in that tank to have Ich.  It is just that they haven't exhibited the spots yet.  All of them would have to be treated.
I am an aquaponics person.  Aquaponics will be cleaned and will be a do-over.  These are my first aquariums.  My aquaponics used 150 gal tank and was set up differently.  I filled the aquariums indoors with water from the big tank last night and will start treatment today.


I have partially quoted you in the above quote because these are other statements that are not clear to me.

I don't know what "aquaponics" are.  Do you really mean hydroponics (growing plants in a water, not soil, solution)? By saying that the aquaponics will be cleaned and will be a do-over, what will that entail?
When you say that your aquaponics tank was set up differently, what does that mean?
What is the "big tank"?  Is the water in that tank filtered?

Please answer these questions of mine so that I can be clear in my own mind of what is going on.

Oh, and welcome to Badman's!   Smiley
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When in doubt, do a water change.
TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 05:50:24 PM »

Quote
Aquaponics /ˈækwəˈpɒnᵻks/, refers to any system that combines conventional aquaculture (raising aquatic animals such as snails, fish, crayfish or prawns in tanks) with hydroponics (cultivating plants in water) in a symbiotic environment. In normal aquaculture, excretions from the animals being raised can accumulate in the water, increasing toxicity. In an aquaponic system, water from an aquaculture system is fed to a hydroponic system where the by-products are broken down by nitrification bacteria into nitrates and nitrites, which are utilized by the plants as nutrients, and the water is then recirculated back to the aquaculture system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquaponics

Before this fancy name there were veggie filters  Wink
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article69.html

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Pat Mary
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 06:48:42 PM »

Thanks for clarifying, TwoTankAmin.  Smiley
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WindDancer
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 09:44:14 PM »

I was raising organic veggies using the fish poop as fertilizer.  I have 150 gal tank from tractor supply which is connected to an 8x4 floating raft system. I used a pond pump to create the ebb and flow I needed. I also put granite in pantyhose and put that into small baskets under the floating board the plants sit in.  I did this to give the good bacteria places to grow. 
Heating the watet and salting it for ich would have hurt the produce. So I took the system apart and will clean it thoroughly. 4 aquariums were donated to me so I set up a fish hospital to treat them.
I would post pictures, however I just signed on today and have to figure out how to do it.
I never had fish until I started the aquaponics months ago. Never had aquariums in the house until today.  They are beautiful but I have much to learn.
Thanks for the info and the welcome.
WindDancer
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 10:26:58 AM »

One thing that I love about this site is that I am constantly learning.  Smiley

Keep a close eye on those hospital tanks.  I may be wrong but it seems to me that you have no cycled filters on them so there could be a danger to whatever fish are in them.  Do you have a test kit for the water?  I would take sample and see if there is any ammonia in the water.  Fish produce ammonia in their waste and it can be toxic to them.  Also, when you do water changes while they are in the aquaria, unless the new water is coming from a well, be sure to use a dechlorinator. 

Just out of curiosity, what sizes are the tanks that the fish are in?  How many fish are in each tank?  And, are they all goldfish?
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When in doubt, do a water change.
TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 11:39:30 AM »

I have used uncyled Hospital tanks for many years. The trick, as pat Mary noted, is not to allow ammonia to build up. The way to do this is a lot of water changes. Depending on the size of the rank and the fish bio-mass involved wcs can be daily or every other day or more than once a day. There are a few consderations.

Water changes remove meds. Therefore if you have to dose the tank with a regularly scheduled dose, do the water change and then add the meds. If there is no dose to be made on a day you are doing a water change, then you need to replace the meds removed. So if you do a 50% water change you should add a 50% dose of the med after the wc.

You do not need to do anything to the plant/veggie part of the system if you ave removed all the fish:
Quote
Freshwater Ich

Symptoms: Fish look like they have little white salt grains on them and may scratch against objects in the tank.

White spot disease (Ichthyopthirius multifiliis) is caused by a protozoan with a life cycle that includes a free-living stage. Ich grows on a fish --> it falls off and attaches to gravel or tank glass --> it reproduces to MANY parasites --> these swarmers then attach to other fish. If the swarmers do not find a fish host, they die in about 3 days (depending on the water temperature).

Therefore, to treat it, medicine must be added to the display tank to kill free-living parasites. If fish are removed to quarantine, parasites living in the tank will escape the treatment -- unless ALL fish are removed for about a week in freshwater or three weeks in saltwater systems. In a reef tank, where invertebrates are sensitive to ich medications, removing the fish is the only option. Some people think that ich is probably dormant in most tanks. It is most often triggered by temperature fluctuations.

Remedy: For most fish, use a medication with formalin and malachite green. These are the active ingredients in many ich medications at fish shops. Some products are Kordon's Rid Ich and Aquarium Products' Quick Cure. Just read the label and you may find others. Check for temperature fluctuations in the tank and fix them to avoid recurrences. Note that tetras can be a little sensitive to malachite green, so use it at half the dose.

Use these products as directed (usually a daily dose) until all of the fish are spot-free. Then dose every three days for a total of four more doses. This will kill any free-swimming parasites as they hatch out of cysts.

Another remedy is to raise the tank temperature to about 90 deg F and add 1 tsp/gallon salt to the water. Not all fish tolerate this.

Finally, one can treat ich with a ``transfer method.'' Fish are moved daily into a different tank with clean, conditioned, warmed water. Parasites that came off of the fish are left behind in the tank. After moving the fish daily for a week, the fish (presumably cured) can be put back into the main tank. The disadvantage of this method is that it stresses both fish and fishkeeper.
from http://fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html

Since you have removed the fish to treat them in a hospital setting, by keeping them out of the main system for long enough, it will automatically kill off the ich in that system. You are able to use the life cycle of Ich and the absence of fish to eliminate them without treatment of any type in the main system.
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WindDancer
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 08:54:28 PM »

I traded veggies from my garden for two 20 gal tanks and two 10 gal tanks.  I bought Aqueon circulating pumps for each tank and air stones because I read as you heat the water, there is less oxygen. I put in 1 tsp per gal (very slowly) of aquarium salt.  Raised the temp (slowly) to 84 degrees.  The white spots are gone but I plan to continue treatment for a week or so, doing 1/3 water changes every 3rd day (filtered well water). I have the fish that had the white spots in a 10 gal tank by herself.  4 small fish in another 10 gal tank.  6 fish in a 20 gal and 7 in the other 20 gal.  Will test the water tonight.  It looks pretty cloudy. I think I caught the infestation early.  I had bought some duckweed from Amazon and put it directly in my aquaponics tank.  Pretty sure that's where the ich came from.  Hard lesson. They are all Japanese Fantail Goldfish.
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 09:32:08 AM »

You have pretty many fish in your hospital tanks and goldfish have a heavy bioload so ammonia will be building up fast.  If you don't already have one, purchase a liquid reagent ammonia test (make sure it is a liquid test and not test strips).  If the ammonia tests at more than .25, do at least a 50% water change.  Ammonia burns the gills and prevents the fish from using oxygen.  It is important to keep an eye on it.
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russ
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 08:46:56 PM »

My hospital tanks were also non-cycled tanks. Water was filtered with just a mechanical media and approx. 100% of the water was changed within a 24 hour period. More often if treating for a bacteria infection because fish can only absorb so much of the meds within a short period of time. Ich meds contain dye-type med and are diluted as mentioned above and need to be replaced because of that. Fish produce ammonia all the time through their metabolic processes and changing only 50% of the water will not eliminate enough ammonia in a single change, but will continue to build exponentially during a treatment period. The higher the pH and temperature, the more toxic ammonia becomes. If you are able to change 100% of the water in each 24 hour period, your fish should be ok during the treatment period and it would simulate the 'transfer method' mentioned. Another reason for larger changes is that aquarium salt also raises the TDS which accounts for fish stress and many unexplained fatalities. Changing 50% of the water and then replacing the water with the equivalent proportion of salt will actually increase the over-all salt content in the water. A hydrometer should really be employed to keep the actual salinity steady through the treatment period. I know, another instrument/apparatus to use. But, hey, it's a hobby and it is all part of the process sometimes.


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« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 08:53:21 PM by russ » Logged

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russ
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 09:34:16 PM »

I forgot to mention that while fish could only absorb so much of a medication, salt is not one of those. Fish will be constantly balancing the surrounding salt content of the water and body through osmoregulation.


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