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Author Topic: Water change ph?  (Read 7255 times)
Sheralyn
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« on: June 01, 2016, 10:50:23 AM »

Tank Size: 75 gallon

Filtration  Aquaclear 110 with standard sponge (and airstone on opposite side)

How long has your tank been set up: 4-5 months

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 0 and .5
PH: 7.6
Temperature: 78
Substrate: none
Décor/Live or fake plants: lots of fake plants
Maintenance: 20% water change once week
Dechlorinator: Prime

Who lives in your tank?
14 guppies w/10-12 tiny fry, 3 mollies, 2 platys, 5 corys, 5 ottos, 1 bristlenose pleco
Fed twice daily Omega flakes (I roll and crush it in my fingers so the fry get some) and a little bit of Omega mini pellets

What symptoms are being exhibited and when did they start:

Ongoing problems with water changes, guppies seem unhappy afterwards, they get still, go to the top or in the corner, and just look unhappy. I thought I found the issue in an earlier post a couple months back in 3 fake plants that had painted bases but still having problems. Most of the time the fish get over it by the next morning, but yesterday I did a 20% PWC and last night I lost 2 guppies and a cory. I use a siphon made of 1/2" pvc pipe attached to a vinyl hose to remove detritus and a fish only 5 gallon bucket to replace water. I check the water temp by hand, and add Prime 2 drops per gallon and one to make me feel good as I fill the bucket. I am careful that my hands are not smelling of soap or anything. I checked my tap water and it tested 0-0-0. The only difference is that the tap PH was 7.2 and my aquarium is 7.6 ? So I am wondering if a difference of .4 PH in a 20% water change could be the problem? I do sometimes have a clarity issue off and on, possibly from the powdered flake and the thick plants, which is why I have 5 each corys and ottos to clean and why I want to do at least weekly PWC. I am so lost - Danged if I do and danged if I don't...... lazyboy
Thanks.

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Pat Mary
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2016, 11:39:13 AM »

I don't think that a .4 change in pH will affect your fish in all that much of a negative way.  I am wondering if there is enough oxygen in the tank.  When water comes to your home through the pipes, it is pressurized.  (You can see the results of that by noticing small bubbles on the glass and surfaces in the tank.)  You might want to de-gas the water by letting it sit out for 24 hours before adding to the tank.  Another thing to do is to pour the water in so that there is a splash.  That oxygenates the water.

Just as an FYI, Corys and Otos are not a clean up crew as such.  A good vacuuming with each water change will go a long way in keeping the tank clean. 
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When in doubt, do a water change.
Sheralyn
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 03:47:18 PM »

I vacuum every time I do a PWC, because I have faux sand bare bottom it's easy. I scoot the plants around and suck up the stuff under the bases. I just now took out about half of the dirt-hoarding plastic plants, and did another 20% PWC via vacuum. Checked the PH after and it did raise to 7.6, checked the temp after and it raised it 1 degree warmer.

Sometimes I fill the tank full so that the filter waterfall has a smooth flow, other times I leave it a bit low so it splashes in and makes bubbles. Yesterday I filled it to the top, so maybe that is the factor? If the new water needs to agitate or sit out - maybe the trick is to replace only 1/2 the water, let the waterfall work it, then 2-3 hours later add another 1/4, and next day top it off. My air stone is pretty powerful too, I have a single stone on a 60 gallon Whisper and it creates an upwell 1/2 inch taller than the rest of the water surface... Thanks PatMary, I'm still trying. 
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 04:00:35 PM »

OH... I forgot... I know I am responsible for "cleaning", but I was worried about the powdered flake food and the thick plants (for the babies); I was wanting fish that would go down in/under the plants and pick pick pick. I can't pull out the plants or shake them out real hard cause I would run the babies out and they will get eaten. I am trying to raise a few guppies and I wanted to do it naturally. Also I do splash my water in pretty good, it's hard to hoist that 5 gallon bucket up there much less pour gently LOL.
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2016, 05:00:39 PM »

It is common for tap water to contain excess CO2 which causes the water to be more acid and thus to lower the pH. It is important when testing the pH of one's tap to either let it sit out overnight or else to put it into a clean container, add and airstone and let it bubble for an hour or so and then test it. Agitating the surface of water allows for gas exchange between the water and the air so th bubbling will foster this. After you have out gassed, then test for pH. Some rocks can also affect pH as wells as some substrates. Since you have none of the latter, what sort of rocks are in the tank. Usually these things act to raise the pH.

Allow the return water from the filter to agitate the surface. The airstone is doing that as well.

Next, more important than pH are hardness- GH and alkalinitity KH (this is what acts to hold pH steady at higher levels). If you do not have test kits for this your local store should test for you. You can bring them a clean sample of your tap to learn what the GH and KH are for it. The reason these things are important is that different fish need different hardness.

You are a brave soul to put the water back into a 75 5 gallons at a time. Consider using a Python vacuum and return system. This hooks to a sing faucet and lets you vacuum and return from the sane device with the flip of a switch. If you go this route you need to add the dechlor to the tank before you start the refill. In this case you should be dosing it for about 65-70 gals as that is about the actual amount of water in the tank.

I would also suggest doing a larger weekly change of else do what you are doing twice a week. I run about 20 tanks these days and all get a 50% or larger change every week. be sure the return water is a decent flow and that you agitate the surface on the return flow.

Lastly, fish can handle some change in parameters easily. bear in mind if you change 50% of the water, any parameter change up or down will only be 1/2 the difference between what is in the tank and the water you are adding. For example, your temp. is 78. If you add back water that is 4 dg colder or warmer, the result will be only a 2 dg change. This tends to hold for most parameters.

Once you know your KH and GH, we can discuss what this means for your current fish. They tend to want to be in somewhat different parameters in this regard. Also you have 3 sets of livebearers- guppy, mollie and platy. You may easily be over-run with babies if the larger fish cannot eat enough of the babies. it depends if you have at least one fm mollie and platy.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2016, 07:47:36 PM »

The water from the tap was 7.6, the water in the tank was 7.4. Doesn't that mean the tap water is more alkaline than the tank water? I don't have a hardness test but I will take a sample to PetSmart. I do know I have hard water. We get mineral deposits and scale in our toilets etc. I have no rocks in the tank. All I have are plastic plants with "ceramic" bases - I don't really know what those are made of.

LOL - I only use the buckets when I do small water changes. I am very lucky in that my tanks (I actually have 2 75's) sit on either side of a window. I use a 1/2" PVC pipe as my vacuum attached to a vinyl hose out the window. I have a coiled garden hose that attaches to the sink to fill with. I don't use the hose for small changes because I'm too tight to use 75 gallons worth of Prime to add 12 gallons of water, especially twice a week. My other tank has Ryukins and they don't mind major water changes, I change 3/4 of their tank weekly, and I use the hose.

I guess I've just been afraid to do a larger water change considering their attitude to small ones. I may just do that, though, and they either make it or not. One thing about using the coiled hose is that I hook 3-4 coils over the tank edge and shut the lid on it rather than submerging it in the water so they get lots of splash and turbulence.

I have family members wanting guppies and mollies, and when they get what they want I will remove some more of the cover plants and let nature take over. Even with lots of plants, I usually only get a few babies out of each batch.

So you think I might be better off to just go ahead and change 50% of the water once a week and quit fiddling around? Sure would be easier on me! Thanks - I will let you know what my hardness is as soon as I get it.
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gunnered72
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Theres more water than air in here :P


« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2016, 10:46:07 PM »

Definitely increase to 50% weekly water changes!

Step them up gradually over the next four weeks (25%, 30%, 40%, 50%) This will allow your fish to adjust more gradually and hence you wont shock them...

Something just occurs to me...I find it very hard to believe that with 25% weekly water changes and no live plants that your NitrAtes are 0 to 5ppm...

What test kit are you using?

Cos if its an API liquid test kit you need to shake the reagent (chemical) bottles vigorously for 2 mins before adding to the water samples (especially the NitrAte number 2 bottle)

Finally your filter flow should ALWAYS break the surface of the water to release Co2......

This sounds like oxygen depletion to me!
Or possibly you are not using enough dechlorinator during your water changes?
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I love to hate Water Changes! :P
Sheralyn
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2016, 09:01:02 AM »

yesterdays water change gave me 3 dead female guppies and a cory this morning - so disheartening. There's just something about this tank. I have some Physa snails in it, they are good indicators of water quality. If the water is funny they go to the top and these spend a lot of time half out of the water.

I think I have to make some major changes. I have a 10 gallon snail tank also, it's crystal clear and the snails are happy. I think I will make a large breeder box from plastic canvas and put my remaining 4 female guppies and fry in there. Maybe my Ottos too. I will put the remaining fish in a plastic tote with the filter, remove the rest of the plants from the 75 and do a 100% water change. Put another filter on it and let it run for 24 hours. Remove most of the water from the tote and drip the new tank water in for several hours then add the fish back into the naked tank. Then restart from there, and try to get it stable?

I use the API test kit. Each bottle is stamped with a lot number and a date, some for 2019 and some for 2020. Are these dates bogus??? I follow the directions and shake nitrate #2 for 30 seconds, add it, then shake the tube for one minute. I use Prime @ 2 drops per gallon and usually a couple extra per bucket. Like I will use 10 drops for a 3/4 full bucket which is about 4 gallons. I don't mess with my filter unless it is necessary, and then I swish and squeeze the sponges in a bucket of tank water. I just can't figure out what the heck I'm doing wrong.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2016, 09:15:18 AM »

I just tested my snail tank for nitrates got a .40 reading which is what I expected; I knew it was well overdue. Just trying to see if the reagent gives expected results.....
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2016, 09:25:59 AM »

The number 2 nitrate bottle needs to be shaken (shook?) for at least a minute and maybe longer.  The solution in that bottle is thick and is hard to mix.  Here is a link giving information directly from API.     http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=15743.0




 Put another filter on it and let it run for 24 hours. Remove most of the water from the tote and drip the new tank water in for several hours then add the fish back into the naked tank. Then restart from there, and try to get it stable?


Maybe I am missing something here.  Are you going to seed the new filter with bacteria?  Why drip the new water?  If you are seeding the new filter, you will need to add fish or an ammonia source too.  Why are you waiting for 24 hours?
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2016, 10:00:01 AM »

OH.... the instructions say shake bottle for 30 seconds, add, then shake tube for 1 minute. Maybe they should redo their instructions? Sheesh - thanks Pat Mary I will do that from now on.

I was going to move and run my established filter with the fish in their temporary container with old water from the tank; to keep the bacteria fed and to keep their water stable.

The new water in the tank just needs agitation/aging as you said to let the gases out. So I have an extra filter for that, no bacteria needed because no fish in the tank.

After 24 hours I was going to drip them with the new water from the tank because it will be 100% new and different from the old water they are in. Then when I put the fish back in, put the established filter back in with them. Just trying to cover all my bases and be extra careful. If this is wrong please guide me!

I realize I have been long-winded on these posts but I want to be thorough and I so appreciate everyone's help and input. me luvya
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2016, 10:04:07 AM »

I'm going kayak fishing (isn't that ironic - LOL) and I will be back this evening. Thanks again!
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 10:36:15 AM »

Sheralyn- in your very 1st post in this thread You wrote:
Quote
The only difference is that the tap PH was 7.2 and my aquarium is 7.6 ?


Are you now saying you misstated the information?

You also just wrote:
Quote
I just tested my snail tank for nitrates got a .40

You say you use the API test kits. But the nitrate kit has no readings even close to being .4 or .5.

On top of this, nitrate kits are notoriously inaccurate, especially in the 0 - 20 ppm range. So I wonder if you mistyped the readings? Also, not only is it advised to shake heck out bottle #2 in the nitrite kit, but many suggest you bang it on a flat surface. As the ingredients settle out to the bottom, they can become stuck there. Banging the bottle helps to insure they get mixed back into solution.

As gunnered72 noted, its hard to believe you have almost no nitrate. Without going into big detail, the way the API kits work we can know from chemistry what to expect from the nitrification process. Without external causes and using API kits, 1 ppm of ammonia can become 2.55 ppm of nitrite and that can become 3.44 ppm of nitrate. In a cycled tank all we ever see is the nitrate. The way we rid a tank of nitrate is via water changes (or by adding live plants). When one does 25% changes, they remove 25% of whatever nitrate may be present. So if we assume ammonia creation is relatively constant over a week, a 25% change leaves 75% of the nitrate behind. Over time that should allow it to build up in a way you would see it from testing.

In starting a new tank and getting it cycled, water from a cycled tank is basically useless for this. The bacteria needed do not live free swimming/floating in the water, they live in a bio-film which is used to anchor them to solid surfaces. This bio-film, as it matures, hosts a lot more than just the nitrifying bacteria. I usually maintain my own small bio-farm for cycling new filters and maintaining old filters which came from established tanks that I have taken down. I have also written articles on cycling without and with fish.

A review of all that you have written does reveal some important clues. If there is something toxic in a tank that is harming or killing fish, it is usually not species specific but will affect most or all of the inhabitants. This would also apply to oxygen levels in a tank. If DO levels are low for guppies, they are low for all the inhabitants in a tank. The fact that only the guppies are having a problem would indicate the issue is specific to them. This is important in light of the following fact about these fish:
Quote
One of the most popular aquarium fish in the world, the guppy is instantly recognisable to most people. There are many aquarium bred varieties of this species available, most have elongated finnage and gaudy colouration. The wild form is seldom seen for sale.

Unfortunately many commercially bred guppies are not very hardy due to inbreeding and over-production and are prone to disease and premature death. We therefore recommend the purchase of quality stock from breeders or society auctions.
from http://seriouslyfish.com/species/Poecilia-reticulata

Also, I see no indication that your quarantine fish before adding them to your tanks. So it is possible the guppies came in with issues.






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Sheralyn
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2016, 10:25:19 PM »

I apologize, I did swap the PH readings in my first post, sometimes I can be a bit dyslexic. And the .40 should have been 40, I did not have the chart in front of me while typing and I forgot. I just beat and banged and shook that bottle for 5 minutes and did another test and it gave me a 5.

I have been trying to find a guppy breeder in my area but have been unsuccessful.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2016, 08:34:51 AM »

TwoTankAmin,
while I truly appreciate your time and expertise are you aware that you came off just a bit.....condescending? I am sure you did not mean to, and I am aware that it is difficult sometimes in written posts to read the writer's attitude so after typing "Maybe I am just too stupid to keep fish" as a reply I deleted it and decided to sleep on it. But reading your response again this morning it still made me feel bad.

I realize how important it is to check my typing and figures before I post so as not to send people on a wild goose chase but I truly do have issues sometimes with numbers, etc. and for that I sincerely apologize. I can't believe I swapped those figures  Sad

I am not trying to be overly sensitive but for cryin' out loud you know I meant 40 when I put .40

Not trying to start some kind of a issue - Just sayin'......... Anyways, I feel better. And I do thank you! Smiley
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2016, 12:09:44 PM »

I am sorry of you got that impression, it was not my intent. However, it is not the easiest thing to try and help people in a forum setting as opposed to in person or at least in a live chat. The process needs to be a back and forth one. I have been doing this for years and sometime I guess I get a bit clinical. Nobody is too stupid to keep fish and I certainly did not mean to imply that.

As for .4 and .5 on the nitrate test, why does that mean 40 and 50 as opposed to 4 or 5? Those would be OK readings. I am notorious for bad typing myself. I always tell people I am a Master of the ancient art of Tai Po. While nitrate numbers can be big- 20 , 60, 80 or more ppm, ammonia and nitrite numbers as decimals are common. All I knew was the .4 or .5 could not be right but that 4/5 or 40/50 both could be. I thought it would be wrong of me to simply assume one or the other.

I wonder how I could have said what I did better, i.e. in such a way that you did not think I was trying to talk down to you. I do not think I was rude?

In my defense, I can only offer suggestions or explanations based on what a poster actually writes. I had no way to know you reversed the pH numbers and that matters because what causes the pH in a tank to drop from its tap level is different from what causes the reverse. I have been keeping fish going into my 16th year of multiple tanks. There is a lot one can learn about the biology and chemistry involved with this hobby and I am still learning every day.

I would make one last observation here. On most forums like this one all we know about the members who post is a screen name. Behind that name could be a newbie with minimal knowledge all the way to a scientist with a doctorate in a relevant field. There is no way to know.You have no idea who I am  (or any other member is) or why what is suggest might be valid or complete hokum. So I try to inject a bit of reason why I might know a bit about what I am saying w/o tying to sound like I am bragging or talking down. 

I am open to any suggestions you might offer as to what I did to make you feel the way you did so I can avoid doing so again. My goal was to help you and your fish as best I could and not to make you feel bad in any way.

I still think your problem relates specifically to the guppys. As for the pH drop, this is more puzzling.

It is possible that your tap has a slight deficiency in CO2 which is corrected after it comes out. You can test this the same way as I suggested for having it come out lower due to excess CO2. If you do this test it will help us figure out the potential cause of your readings. In addition, if you are using the API pH test, there are two different kits. If you buy individual kits, then you would have to buy both. However, if you have the master test kit, both come with that. If one gets readings at the top of the low range kit or at the bottom of the high range kit, it is a good idea to repeat the test with the other kit. Once one tests at the upper or lower limit of a test kit it is possible that the actual level is above or below that level. I am thinking you have both as getting your readings would require having both, but I would like to confirm this is the case.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2016, 09:04:21 PM »

No, you were not rude. I felt like an idiot, and you sort of pointed it out - don't you know you're supposed to put a smiley face in there somewhere when you do that? Or at least ask me if I've been  Just forget I said it - we're good.

Anyway, It's not just the guppies, though they went first. I've lost half my fish, Platies ottos cories also. It's definitely the water change, that 50% I did yesterday killed a lot. I'm in the middle of moving them around now but will get back with PH readings.
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2016, 10:53:52 AM »

If this is something recent in terms of relating to water changes, I can offer two thoughts. The first is water companies will sometimes do a treatment which alters the water parameters short term. They are supposed to advise on certain things but not for others. An example would be something that alter the pH or a boost in chlorination. They may also change the hardness.

The other thing that occurs to me, based on your description of the fish being at the surface before they die would be low oxygen. Dechlors are reducing agents which means they take oxygen from the water. However, you are not overdosing Prime to any extent and you are oxygenating the water with the refill. So I doubt the Prime is causing the problem.

Most of the usual things that I might suggest as causing the problem you have ruled out with your details. If there was something in the tank, such as fake plants or rocks or a live plant that should not be used in tanks, the problems would not be so closely related to a water change. If there was something in the tap water, then it should not be such a temporary effect. That is, fish should be dying for a while.

If you were changing to little water to infrequently and causing old tank syndrome, your nitrate would be elevated and you would have ammonia readings as well. You do not have either. I keep thinking there is something missing here, so I would like to be 100% sure we can eliminate a few things.

1. When doing the 20% changes have you had any deaths or have you noticed any odd behavior in the fish?
2. Do you add anything at all besides Prime to the water when you are doing changes? Do you fertilize the live plants?
3. Do you see any other external symptoms on the fish which are dying?
4. Is your water supply from a municipal system or a private well?

I am starting to grasp at straws here as I cannot think of many other causes beside something off in your tap which would be causing a problem where fish are only dying soon after a big water change but then not after. That would suggest something in the water that actually dissipates. You can change water temp. a bunch as long as you are not changing it such that it is at either extreme end of their normal range. You can change the pH some as well without ill effect. With some fish I have changed the pH by 1 full point in under 5 minutes with no ill effect. But these are acid water fish where the pH is 6.5 or less and the end point is closer to their norm than the staring point.

The one thing that they cannot handle is a substantial change in hardness. There are more accurate measures of what is in water than GH and KH and some fish keepers will use conductivity or TDS to measure them (both require digital meters for this). But I doubt this is the issue here either.

The one fish I would expect might have issues in your water would be the mollies. They need hard water with some salt if they are to do well longer term. The platys also prefer harder water. The otos, corys and bristlenose prefer softer and a pH closer to 7.0, But they can normally handle higher as the long as the water is not overly hard. Normally guppies are pretty forgiving of parameters and can tolerate a wide range of hardness as long as they are not inbred farmed fish.

The one thing I do not think might be at fault here is anything you are doing unless it is something you did not mention. Even though I think your maint. routine should result in higher nitrate than you are testing, I am not very trusting of nitrate test accuracy, especially when its under 20 ppm. But even 40 ppm it should not kill fish quickly.

I do know I sometimes come across in a way that some may find condescending. I think it may be due to the fact that when I try to help fish keepers with a problem they have, I try to explain things to a greater degree than many who reply. I do not feel it is enough to give a short answer with no explanation. I would note that I am pushing close to being 70 and I am sort of old school. So, to younger folks, my way of posting may come across in an unintended way.












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Pat Mary
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2016, 11:30:06 AM »

  I am wondering if there is enough oxygen in the tank.  When water comes to your home through the pipes, it is pressurized.  (You can see the results of that by noticing small bubbles on the glass and surfaces in the tank.)  You might want to de-gas the water by letting it sit out for 24 hours before adding to the tank.  Another thing to do is to pour the water in so that there is a splash.  That oxygenates the water.

I still say that I think there is not enough oxygen.  In reply #2 you said that sometimes you fill the tank so that the "filter waterflow has a smooth flow".  That does not allow for oxygenation. 

I definitely would try to de-gas new water and splash it when filling.  I think that could very well be the solution to this.  Just my  11574
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2016, 08:30:39 PM »

PH tested 7.6 today on both tank and tap, I did let the tap water sit out overnight. I have upped my water changes recently whereas when I had the 7.4 reading in the tank before it had been almost a week since a PWC. I do have the master freshwater API kit so this time I used both high and regular PH test kits. Have not been able to get to PetSmart (30 miles away) to get hardness tests yet, I had duties here. We are on a local water system and I am going to request a recent water report. Yesterday I made a large breeder trap/container from plastic canvas (it turned out really cool) and moved my last female guppy and my guppy fry to the 10 gallon snail tank. I do not change the water as often in it and they seem happy there. I removed the remaining fish and plants from the 75 which left it completely naked. I removed the homemade fry screen from the intake (just in case it is inhibiting some of the flow or maybe the small piece of braided fishing line is leaching dye) It suddenly occurred to me that I usually don't shake my prime bottle (it doesn't say to do so) and could that possibly be my problem? So I shook it up, added 7.5 ml to the tank and refilled it. Dripped new water into fish bucket for 1 hour and poured them all back in. Only lost 1 male guppy by this morning, possible that he was already weak? Wouldn't it be crazy if it was as simple as that? I even went to the Seachem website and they don't say you need to shake the bottle on there either...

I don't put anything in the tank except Prime. Fish have no sores, spots or fungus. They look fine until I do a PWC - then they quit swimming around, go hide in the upper corners, or under the outflow, clamp their fins and shimmy just a little. The classic "I don't feel well" look. But although sometimes they go to the surface I don't see the continuous air sucking I would expect to.

So funny you mention the Mollies - I had 3 and I still have those 3. They look fine.

Please accept my apologies again about what I said. I really was being overly sensitive.

Let me tell you "who" I am. I am a 57 year old country girl. My husband is 70. I kayak fish and I used to hunt. I can build and make things. I could spend hours looking under rocks in the creek to see what creatures are there. When I was young I had the big Herbert Axelrod fish book (among others) and I had aquariums but I don't remember reading about frequent water changes back then. I had guppies too, and they were no problem at that time. Hello!

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Pat Mary
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2016, 08:41:04 PM »

Don't you think that you are overthinking the problem?  To me I do water changes and everything is fine.  You are having problems that normally don't come up.  I would just do regular maintenance on the tank and go from there.  I really don't believe that it is rocket science but just common sense that will maintain a tank.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2016, 08:14:52 AM »

Hey Pat Mary,
yes I do. I have two 75 gallon tanks exactly alike, the other tank has 7 fancy goldfish. They get a 3/4 WC about once a week, and they act like they are at Disneyland during the process. They roll and play in the incoming water and just generally have a ball. They have never been sick and I have never lost any (knock on wood). I am beginning to get tired of the "issues" the tropical tank seems to have. I try to treat my fish well, but when all is said and done, they're just fish, and the ones I buy are cheap enough. I have just about gotten to the point that I am going to quit worrying about it and they will either live or die - and I'll just buy some more. The issue will probably work itself out eventually.

BTW - I'm getting a red squiggly line under my typing that is driving me nuts is this something to do with the post or is it my new computer? (I HATE windows 10)
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2016, 10:48:04 AM »

It's  probably just the inbreeding of the guppies that is causing your problems.  Sometimes "stuff" just happens.  Smiley

Red, squiggly lines usually come up for me when I miss-spell something.  (Or when the computer thinks I have miss-spelled.)

I tried Windows 10 for a couple of weeks and also hated it so I went back to Windows 7.  I don't know why they can't just leave well enough alone.
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2016, 09:04:44 AM »

Pat Mary, we may be right about the guppies being "weak," however that does not explain the deaths of the other fish as Sheralyn stated in reply # 16 in this thread

Quote
Anyway, It's not just the guppies, though they went first. I've lost half my fish, Platies ottos cories also.

Since it appears now as if the pH changes, which were the original subject of this thread, were not actually all that great. This would suggest an excess or lack of dissolved gasses is likely not the problem. I am very familiar with this from the excess CO2 side as my tap is still close to a full point higher when it settles in the tank. It used to be just over a point. However, as I worked my way pretty quickly into multiple tanks, I developed a system of large Rubbermaids, pumps and hoses which allowed me to outgas CO2 and insure the changing water was also well oxygenated. My lucky part is I have a private well, so I have never used dechlor.

I can come up with a few potential explanations for what might have caused the deaths. But what I am thinking now is it is a combination of things, especially in light of Sheralyn'a success with the goldies in her other 75. If we start with some form of disease coming in on some of the tropicals and spreading to other fish and then add a slightly low O level relating to water changes and the reducing nature of dechlors and then throw in the potential of an unknown issue in the return water as well and it is entirely possible all this combined is the problem.

The final piece of this puzzle might relate to something that could have happened months ago. If there was an ammonia issue during the first month or two of the tank, there might have been some gill damage which acted as one more thing among several in a combination effect.

There is nothing worse than watching fish die and not knowing why because we are left feeling helpless and often guilty that it might be something we have done wrong. I have had a couple of episodes like that over the years. I have never been able to keep otos alive longer term. I have bred plecos and corys but otos I kept killing. After about 18 months and over 50 dead otos I finally decided to give up. And the otos were in several different tanks and from multiple sources, so it wasn't just one tank that was off.

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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Sheralyn
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2016, 09:25:03 AM »

Tech people are not happy unless they can take a thing which is accomplished in one simple step and turn it into a 3 ring circus.

While I have decided not to stress out over my "problem" tank, I am still going to address it, just not to the point it makes me crazy. Because it is a bare bottom with faux white sand you can see every bit of detritus. While I love the look I would prefer to vacuum it out every couple of days, which removes about 5-6 gallons of water. Since I did a 50% change on the goldfish yesterday, I pulled my replacement water from their tank, and then put new water from the tap in theirs. Let's see if that does it - since the tropicals hate new water we'll try some not so new water. The goldfish tank also has an Aquaclear 110 and a strong airstone.
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