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Author Topic: Water change ph?  (Read 7959 times)
Sheralyn
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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2016, 09:06:21 AM »

Can you tell me - is 47.8 ppm Hardness soft water? And if so:

Also - as a dedicated DIY'er, what is the consensus on cement bases on homemade aquarium plants? If I do indeed have soft water and I tend to do small PWC almost daily (so no big fluctuations) would that be OK and even add hardness? I used to have a cement pond of fish in the garden that did quite well. I would love to make a couple.

thanks!
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2016, 09:41:19 AM »

While it is a good thing to have the TDS as supplied by the water comany, but I would make two observations about this. Reports are usually based on a some number of individual tests or perhaps a single one. However, given all of the variables involved with public water supply, including private pies not under regulation the way public pies are, one needs to be aware that what comes out of their tap may not have the exact specs their water company supplies. What is more important is to test what actually comes out of their specific tap.What is most important is what is the TDS in any given tank.

Why this is the case has to do with how TDS is calculated. Al the meters used actually are testing for conductivity. Contrarty to popular belief, pure water is a poor conductor of electricity. What makes most water a good conductor are all the other things in it. These are what actually conduct the electricty. So what a conductivity meter does is to send a small current between two electrodes in the water. They know how much is being sent and what is received determines conductivity.

Quote
Units of Measurement

Electrical Conductivity is the ability of a solution to transfer (conduct) electric current.  It is the reciprocal of electrical resistivity (ohms).  Therefore conductivity is used to measure the concentration of dissolved solids which have been ionized in a polar solution such as water.  The unit of measurement commonly used is one millionth of a Siemen per centimeter (micro-Siemens per centimeter or µS/cm).  When measuring more concentrated solutions, the units are expressed as milli-Siemens/cm (mS/cm) i.e.- 10-3 S-cm (thousandths of a Siemen).  For ease of expression, 1000 µS/cm are equal to 1 mS/cm. Often times conductivity is simply expressed as either micro or milli Siemens.  However this unit of measurement is sometimes (incorrectly) referred to as micro-mho's rather than micro-Siemens.  The expression "mho" was simply the word ohm spelled backwards.
from http://www.mbhes.com/conductivity_measurement.htm

What a TDS meter measures is conductivity but then the device uses a preset formula that should also account for temperature, to convert the micro-Siemens into TDS expressed as ppm. For non-scientists like myself, TDS can be a bit easier to understand. The other thing to realizes id TDS or conductivity measure the total of things but they do not tell us what those things are nor hoe much of any them might be. Both GH and KH contribute to TDS, but so also do ions. So nitrate in the water will raise TDS, for example.

While it helps to know one's GH, this does not change due to the presence of salt (sodium chloride). If you measure the TDS of fresh water and then add salt to it, the TDS will rise but the GH will not. It may be helpful to understand this all when one realizes that one measure of both GH and KH is ppm. 1 degree of GH or KH can be converted to ppm by multiplying each degree by 17.8 to get the ppm or vice versa.

I use a TDS meter because I breed some fish which, in the wild, are triggered to spawn due to the seasonal change in their water due to having a dry and a rainy season. One of the things that makes these two seasons different in terms of water parameters is a change in TDS and temperature. Of all of the digital testers oen might want, a TDS meter is the least expensive. Mine was about $22 and reads both TDS and Temp. I also have a continuous 3-way continuous monitor that reads temp, pH and TDS, that cost me well over $200 and that doesn't include the needed calibration solutions. Most fish keepers do not really need this equipment.

Looking at your TDS of 112 ppm, you have soft water. My tap is 83 ppm tops and when we get big rains a for a few days I have seen it drop to 57 ppm, But I have a private well. But my TDS means my water pretty soft. My Gh is about 5 dg and my KH is about 3 dg.

Quote
Water hardness follows the following guidelines. The unit dH means "degree hardness'', while ppm means "parts per million'', which is roughly equivalent to mg/L in water. 1 unit dH equals 17.8 ppm CaCO3. Most test kits give the hardness in units of CaCO3; this means the hardness is equivalent to that much CaCO3 in water but does not mean it actually came from CaCO3.

General Hardness

 0 -  4 dH,    0 -   70 ppm : very soft
 4 -  8 dH,   70 -  140 ppm : soft
 8 - 12 dH,  140 -  210 ppm : medium hard
12 - 18 dH,  210 -  320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH,  320 -  530 ppm : hard
higher : liquid rock (Lake Malawi and Los Angeles, CA)
Quote
from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html#reference

This is important because you are keeping a number of fish that prefer harder water and some that prefer softer water. Otos, angels and the bn like softer, but the bn can take harder as can the angel. The rest of your fish want hard water and need it for long term health.

Given all of the above I am sure you have multiple issues. One is the problem with farmed guppies and the other is due to your water parameters. It may also be they there is a pathogen in the tank that could have come in with any of the fish. Bear in mind that different fish are more or less susceptible to diseases and parasites, A fish that survives ich build up an immunity to it which will last some number of months is an example. And then stress will always weaken the immune system of a fish.

Sorry to be long winded here, but I hope it helps you see the bigger picture. I think a few things would be helpful for you to consider. The first is quarantine for new fish prevents a lot of problems. The second is that you rethink your stocking some. If you want to keep fish happier in soft water do that. if you want fish that are happier in harder water, then you will need to use an additive to maintain that hardness. Increasing hardness is easier to do in a stable fashion than the reverse.
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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Sheralyn
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2016, 12:45:31 PM »

well I'll be dipped in ****. I have thought we had hard water all my life. I never thought to question it, just what I always heard. Just goes to show...

I don't have any other testing equipment and am not looking to buy any at this time, I try to keep my hobbies on a budget. I am assuming that even if the water board is off, it will be somewhat accurate. At any rate it's all I have. I do know that the manager has been running it for 20+ years and is OCD about it. I may give him a call.

I really would like to continue with the live-bearers. Is it possible to maintain better water parameters using oyster shell or concrete? Since I do frequent small water changes the water should not fluctuate a lot. I would like to try that.
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Sheralyn
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« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2016, 05:54:07 PM »

And I want to apologize to everyone who has been so kind and helpful, that I did not realize my water was very soft. But I have learned a lot, and quite enjoyed talking with you. I do like angelfish. And I have 3 male guppies in there now who seem very happy and healthy. Perhaps guppies can adjust better than mollies? Especially if I raise some? I googled to see if angelfish will eat guppies and got mixed answers. I am supposing they would be ok till they get big.
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Pat Mary
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« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2016, 06:12:44 PM »

Angelfish will eat anything that will fit in their mouths.  People use them as a control for guppy fry. 
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When in doubt, do a water change.
Pat Mary
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« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2016, 06:24:51 PM »

I really would like to continue with the live-bearers. Is it possible to maintain better water parameters using oyster shell or concrete? Since I do frequent small water changes the water should not fluctuate a lot. I would like to try that.

Different materials can change water parameters.  I would suggest that you not try to use anything to change your parameters until you can measure them.  I wouldn't want to just guess at what is happening in your tank, especially in light of what has happened up until now. 

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When in doubt, do a water change.
TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2016, 08:03:49 AM »

Pat Mary hit the nail on the head. In order to alter one's parameters you need to be able both to understand the chemistry involved and then have adequate tools to measure these things. This may help you understand things.

At the base of it all is pure water which essentially consists of hydrogen and Oxygen in the for of H2O. Contrary to wjay most think, pure water is a very poor conductor of electricity. But what about what we all know in this respect, water conducts electricity. How can both facts be true? The answer is it is not the water which conducts the electricity, it is everything else in water beside H2O.

That is why the way we measure what is in the water is by using a conductivity meter. The results from this are expressed in microsiemens. A variation of the is a TDS meter. This also measures conductivity but then uses a formula to convert microsiemens into TDS expressed as ppms.

Everything in water changes its parameters. But is is not just this simple. The chemistry itself changes in water. Consider something as simple as ammonia. This is a gas with the chemical symbol NH3. it is quite toxic. But when Ammonia is in water things change. Instead of remaining as all NH3, most of it turns to ammonium which is NH4 and is way less toxic. This is complicated by the fact that how much might be NH3 vs NH4 depends on the specific pH and temperature off the water. Higher pH and temperatures mean more of the ammonia will be in the form of NH3. So if you and I have a tank which is at 78F and mine is pH 6.0 and yours is pH 8.0 and we both have .25 ppm of ammonia on our test kits, my tank is basically safe for the fish because mines only has .0003 ppm of NH3 but yours has .0285 ppm. Since research shows that levels under .02 ppm are pretty much not harmful to any form of aquatic life, my tank is safe and yours may not be.

Now, if you consider all of the things that might be in tank water and how they may interact with both the water and each other, you start to see how complicated things can become. Hopefully, what comes out of our taps will tend to have consistent parameters, whatever they may be. This lets one keep things simple. But the moment we decide to try and alter things, simple goes out the window.

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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Sheralyn
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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2016, 07:49:11 AM »

Wow that's a lot of science - I'll do good to understand the basics LOL. I do understand about the conductivity.

I know I tend to get ahead of myself, I'm really thinking out loud about oyster shell and concrete, and whether I should change over to soft water fish. Just thinking and learning... I ordered an API gh kh test kit from Foster & Smith yesterday.
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russ
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I know where rasaqua's stuff is.....


« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2016, 04:54:07 PM »

And.................you don't even have to have a lighting storm over your tank to start the nitrification process ! proud
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Aquatics
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« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2017, 05:00:47 AM »

This is not a big matter that the reason of your fish ding for .4 pH changing. It may be the lac of oxygen and the huge amount of bacteria. If don't know there is any aquarium air pump or not, but if there is no air pump, you should keep it now and change the water 10%-20% in a week.
Look here: http://fishboxpro.com/best-aquarium-air-pump/
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Myra
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2017, 05:02:51 PM »

What about filtration? Maybe you need a better fish tank filter? There is a lot of things what could be...
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fishtank
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« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2017, 06:03:55 AM »

Same problem I faced almost 2 years ago, but then I was not getting the perfect suggestion then for that reason I have lost my clown fish. So don't get upset, the best aquarium filter can easily solve the problem and basically, I have used it. I don't have to change water frequently. It works awesome. If you like, can check my website: https://fishboxpro.com/best-canister-filter-review
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russ
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« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2017, 06:27:48 PM »

Fluval filters are very good filters, but filters work best in conjunction with at least some type of 'weekly' partial water change along with monitoring water conditions through proper testing.  happy


* No color image.jpg (2.99 KB, 76x70 - viewed 66 times.)
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"For every difficult question, there is an answer that is clear and simple and wrong."
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TwoTankAmin
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« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2017, 10:53:31 AM »

The two best forms of filtration I have found, having tried a variety, are a well planted tank and/or a Hamburg matten filter. Both of these also should involve weekly 50% water changes. Sometime more may be needed.
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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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