Chat transcripts

[20:02 18/02/2005] <@craig> Good evening everyone!
[20:02 18/02/2005] <@craig> Welcome to Live Fishchat!
[20:03 18/02/2005] <@craig> Tonight we begin our regular series of chats for aquatic enthusiasts with one of Badmans very own: Megan, her topic for the evening will be Hybrids.
[20:03 18/02/2005] <@craig> Megan, when ever you are ready. Let'er rip. :-D
[20:04 18/02/2005] <+megan> Thanks, Craig. :D
[20:05 18/02/2005] <+megan> The hybridization of freshwater tropical fish is a controversial subject within the fishkeeping community. On one
[20:05 18/02/2005] <+megan> hand, hybridization can produce fish species that are much more colorful and attractive than some fish found in the wild.
[20:06 18/02/2005] <+megan> However, some people argue that this is unethical and can be detrimental to the health and well-being of the fish. Some
[20:06 18/02/2005] <+megan> hybrids are now commonly found in the home aquarium, while others are still very expensive and only bought and bred by expert
[20:06 18/02/2005] <+megan> fishkeepers who are intrigued by their genetics and the possibility of making a profit off of them.
[20:07 18/02/2005] <+megan> In my opinion, hybrids
[20:07 18/02/2005] <+megan> are not good for the fishkeeping hobby and should not continue to be sold and bred.
[20:08 18/02/2005] <+megan> One example of a common tropical fish hybrid is the blood parrot cichlid. This fish has been around for four or five
[20:08 18/02/2005] <+megan> years. The exact origins are not known.
[20:08 18/02/2005] <+megan> Blood parrots come in many colors, including red, orange, and purple, and have been
[20:08 18/02/2005] <+megan> bred to have large, round bodies and short, beak-like mouths.
[20:09 18/02/2005] <+megan> Blood parrots are very popular because of their
[20:09 18/02/2005] <+megan> appearance. Unfortunately, the people who buy them are usually unaware of their specific needs.
[20:10 18/02/2005] <+megan> Some do not even know that
[20:10 18/02/2005] <+megan> they are hybrids and believe they are buying natural cichlids.
[20:11 18/02/2005] <+megan> As these fish can grow to be eight inches long, they need to be kept in larger tanks than most beginning fishkeepers have.
[20:12 18/02/2005] <+megan> This type of buyer, however, is the one that breeders target.
[20:12 18/02/2005] <+megan> Blood parrots are also often unable to breed because of genetic mutations.
[20:12 18/02/2005] <+megan> Fortunately, if they were ever accidentally released in the wild, their bright colors and awkward mouth and body shape would make it nearly impossible for them to escape from predators.
[20:13 18/02/2005] <+megan> Blood parrot cichlids are just one example of a tropical fish hybrid that is not beneficial to the fishkeeping hobby.
[20:13 18/02/2005] <+megan> A second example of a somewhat popular hybrid is the flower horn cichlid.
[20:14 18/02/2005] <+megan> These fish are a cross between several species of cichlids and are produced through selective breeding for a large hump on the forehead and bright, fluorescent colors.
[20:15 18/02/2005] <+megan> They sell for prices anywhere from $10 to over $300,000. ($300,000 is very rare)
[20:15 18/02/2005] <+megan> Fortunately, because these fish are so expensive and often only sold by breeders online, they are not usually bought and abused by new fishkeepers.
[20:16 18/02/2005] <+megan> This positive aspect, however, is offset by the fact that often breeders will throw away many of the fish they produce because of imperfections in color or body shape.
[20:16 18/02/2005] <+megan> Flower horns have many characteristics that make them unsuitable for most home aquariums.
[20:17 18/02/2005] <+megan> They can reach sizes of 16 inches, and very few people have aquariums that are big enough to comfortably house such a fish.
[20:17 18/02/2005] <+megan> They are also very aggressive and prone to killing any fish smaller than them.
[20:18 18/02/2005] <+megan> Flower horns will sometimes even attack a person’s hand if he or she puts it into the tank. These fish are clearly inappropriate pets in most cases.
[20:18 18/02/2005] <+megan> The blood parrot and flower horn cichlids are two examples of fish that have been bred purposefully for an appealing appearance and to make money.
[20:19 18/02/2005] <+megan> Some hybrids, however, are produced accidentally.
[20:19 18/02/2005] <+megan> Some fish of the Aulonocara genus (a genus of fish found in Africa’s Lake Malawi) will breed together if kept in the same aquarium.
[20:20 18/02/2005] <+megan> To prevent this, many websites warn against keeping these fish together.
[20:20 18/02/2005] <+megan> Of course, people do not always heed this general rule, and there are currently at least two Aulonocara species that are considered hybrids.
[20:20 18/02/2005] <+megan> Some people also see the color variations of freshwater angelfish and discus as hybrids because they are so different from those found in the wild.
[20:21 18/02/2005] <+megan> However, they are not completely new species, so this is not a common view.
[20:21 18/02/2005] <+megan> There are several arguments made about why hybrids are unethical.
[20:22 18/02/2005] <+megan> The most prominent one is that humans should not mess around with what Mother Nature made.
[20:22 18/02/2005] <+megan> Aquariums often force fish to live in much smaller spaces and more crowded conditions than they ever would encounter in the wild.
[20:22 18/02/2005] <+megan> This causes unnatural activities, such as hybridization, to occur.
[20:23 18/02/2005] <+megan> Hybrids can also be mistaken for specimens of true, natural fish and, as most species with pure genetic lines are more valuable than hybrids,will be bought and sold for much more than they are worth.
[20:24 18/02/2005] <+megan> Finally, because hybrids are often bred to be visually appealing, they can generate a large demand.
[20:24 18/02/2005] <+megan> In the tropical fish business, this often means that the fish will be mistreated and forced to live in sub-optimal conditions, as shown by the large demand for Siamese fighting fish and goldfish and their now abysmal living conditions in many fish stores.
[20:25 18/02/2005] <+megan> The fishkeeping hobby has been around for many years. While huge advancements have been made in technology used for filters, heaters, and other equipment associated with aquariums, the fish hybrids seen today are the beginning of a potential revolution of creating new, unnatural fish.
[20:26 18/02/2005] <+megan> An increasingly complete understanding of the genetics and mechanics of fish is allowing breeders to develop new techniques to enhance their fish, but these techniques are often unhealthy for the fish.
[20:26 18/02/2005] <+megan> Some breeders of flower horns even bend the spines of their fish and dye them to make them more appealing. Clearly, creating new fish is one area in which an absence of technology is needed. Very few of the advancements made in breeding fish so far have been beneficial to the hobby or to nature.
[20:27 18/02/2005] <+megan> It is true that in some rare cases, hybridization may be acceptable. However, it should always be controlled, while currently it is not.
[20:27 18/02/2005] <+megan> One should always remember that the only way to stop the production of products is to stop buying them. This is true in the case of hybrids, too.
[20:28 18/02/2005] <+megan> There are hundreds of colorful and interesting fish in the wild that do not have ethical concerns attached to them. I believe that a responsible fishkeeper should always keep these natural, amazing species instead of turning to hybrids.
[20:29 18/02/2005] <@craig> Thank you Megan!
[20:29 18/02/2005] <@craig> If you have a question for Megan, please type: /query craig I have a question
[20:29 18/02/2005] <@craig> Questions will be presented in the order received. [20:30 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> Great job Megan. ^_^ anyways...
[20:30 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> Especially when keeping north american natives, "natuaral" natives come into play (eg. Muskie-Pike, hybrid sunfish) . This hybrids can be created by natural means, or, because of human intervention (accidental or otherwise) Do you think keeping such fish is overall "better" than keeping man made hybrids, or thoughts in general?
[20:30 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> please ignore spelling and grammar errors, ^_^;
[20:32 18/02/2005] <+megan> thanks :) so these are hybrids that occur naturally?
[20:33 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> indeed, although people hopefully wouldnt keep a Muskie-Pike, I know people keep sunfish, so that would be a more likily occurance
[20:34 18/02/2005] <@craig> Don't be shy folks, the question queue is empty. :-)
[20:35 18/02/2005] <+megan> well, yes, i would think keeping this type of fish is better than man-made hybrids. my biggest problem with man-made hybrids is that they seem to be made only to make money and for commercial purposes, so, at least in my opinion, this type of hybrid would be fine to keep. [20:35 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> another question then if you dont mind...
[20:38 18/02/2005] <+Geoff> Do you believe keeping hybrids is more "ethical" than keeping fish such as some kinds of goldfish or balloon mollies? These fish have been bred into shapes and colours that are not natural, and the fish likily "suffer" because of it. (because there is no fish translation device we will never know if they care) Many hybrids (eg. Tiger Shovelnose/redtail catfish) function fine, although they are hybrids, yet some livebe
[20:40 18/02/2005] <+megan> hmm, no, i don't think it's ok when fish are bred such that they have features that are supposed to be attractive, but are hindered by whatever trait they are bred for
[20:40 18/02/2005] <+NightEyes> what are your thoughts on man made hybrids such as the whiper (white bass and land locked striped bass) that are stocked in lakes to provide anglers with a new bass to fish for while work are bringing the populations of other "natural" bass is done?
[20:40 18/02/2005] <@craig> NE, batter up..
[20:41 18/02/2005] <+megan> oh, good :)
[20:44 18/02/2005] <+megan> it sounds definitely sounds like these hybrids have been bred for the purpose of helping the environment and ecosystem. i think that as long as they are kept in check and environmentalists have thoroughly researched their effect, they are fine.
[20:44 18/02/2005] <@craig> Colleen, please ask your question. :-)
[20:45 18/02/2005] <+Colleen> ok, parrot fish...is there a type other than blood parrots, or is that the standard, only kind?
[20:45 18/02/2005] <+megan> i believe there are saltwater parrotfish, which are not hybrids
[20:46 18/02/2005] <+Colleen> but the orange ones you see in the store are all hybrids?
[20:46 18/02/2005] <+megan> i'm not aware of any other freshwater parrotfish, but there may be some
[20:46 18/02/2005] <+megan> yes, they are
[20:48 18/02/2005] <@craig> Now's as good a time as any, the floor is now open, watch your step. :-)
[20:48 18/02/2005] <+megan> Thanks for coming everyone :) [20:48 18/02/2005] <@Jessica> thanks megs, it was great :-D
[20:48 18/02/2005] Good job Megan:)
[20:48 18/02/2005] <@JP> Thanks Megs, and everyone who came. :-)
[20:48 18/02/2005] (y) ^_^
[20:48 18/02/2005] <+megan> thanks :)
[20:48 18/02/2005] Can you please repeat everything you posted:-D
[20:49 18/02/2005] Great job Megan
[20:49 18/02/2005] <@craig> Russ.. "Hybrids are ebil, get real fish, chat over." ;-)
[20:49 18/02/2005] <+megan> hehe
[20:49 18/02/2005] :-D
[20:50 18/02/2005] <@JP> Russ, just remember the time difference next week. ;-)
[20:50 18/02/2005] Add a little chromium and *poof*! :-D
[20:51 18/02/2005] <@craig> Just for the record (and so it will be where folks can see it) check here for time differences: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=105
[20:51 18/02/2005] <@JP> It's always posted in the chat announcement as well. :-)
[20:51 18/02/2005] <@craig> People read the transcripts tho. ;-D
[20:51 18/02/2005] <@JP> I was just saying.. :-D
[20:52 18/02/2005] great chat Meg!
[20:53 18/02/2005] <+megan> thank you :)
[20:53 18/02/2005] <@craig> I know Russ has something to say about conspecs and not wanting to cross breeding lines, Russ, care to stick your neck out?
[20:53 18/02/2005] <@JP> Yep, couldn't have said it better myself. ;-)
[20:53 18/02/2005] gtg folks company's here... gj Megan... Take care everyone :)
[20:54 18/02/2005] <@JP> See ya, Christine. :-)
[20:54 18/02/2005] G'nite Christine
[20:54 18/02/2005] <+megan> bye christine, thanks for coming :)
[20:54 18/02/2005] I must be off also...good night folks
[20:54 18/02/2005] <@JP> Take care. :-)
[20:54 18/02/2005] Goodnight Nat
[20:54 18/02/2005] :o)
[20:54 18/02/2005] <+megan> 'night nat :)
[20:55 18/02/2005] hmmm...say that 10 times fast. lol
[20:55 18/02/2005] <+megan> lol
[20:55 18/02/2005] All personal and ecological issues aside, and all thats left is greed and money;-)
[20:56 18/02/2005] <@craig> Hmm, that attempt at stimulating the conversation didn't work. :-D
[20:59 18/02/2005] I was just discussing with Megan, how I disagreed with the "good points" of those whiper bass things...
[21:00 18/02/2005] I figure that, although these bass are made with the intent of helping the environment, all it takes is one error for a real problem to occur
[21:00 18/02/2005] <@Jessica> go to #badmanschat unless you are goint to talk hybrids...
[21:00 18/02/2005] Ah, Whiper Bass, one of my favorite fishes to catch:-)
[21:00 18/02/2005] Killer bees were made with no ill intent, yet look what happened to them
[21:00 18/02/2005] <@craig> Geoff, are there any case studies of those bass where they were kept outside of a controlled environment?
[21:00 18/02/2005] I dont know, I only heard of them tonight, ^_^
[21:01 18/02/2005] But, the way I look at it, all it takes is one crazy pelican for a problem to get started (exaggeration)
[21:01 18/02/2005] <@craig> As far as I know, they are only stocked in bodies of water where they can be controlled..
[21:01 18/02/2005] Craig, actually they are loaded in the Chattahootchee River in Georgia with absolutely no control.
[21:01 18/02/2005] <@craig> Oh? That's interesting..
[21:02 18/02/2005] They are also in Milford Lake (largest lake in KS)
[21:02 18/02/2005] <@craig> What impact have they had
[21:02 18/02/2005] Craig, hardly, none. They make a good sport fish, good eats, and youngins' make good food for other fish.
[21:03 18/02/2005] Also, there is the ever problamativ bait problem, people catch baby fish of any kind for bait, use said bait in other bodies of water. Many problems could occur
[21:03 18/02/2005] *problamatic
[21:03 18/02/2005] <@craig> Erm, most bait fish never live beyond the experience of being on the hook..
[21:03 18/02/2005] that would be the ideal situation, but accidents happen
[21:04 18/02/2005] Geoff, what kind of 'Pandora Factor' are you getting at ?
[21:05 18/02/2005] People get to the lake, starts raining, fishing is cancelled, dump the bait into the lake. (one of many accidents that could happen) I am not saying all of this always happens, because I doubt it happens all that often, but there is obviously a possibility
[21:05 18/02/2005] <@craig> (Russ is my hero, he always comes through in fish chats.)
[21:05 18/02/2005] Oh wow, I understood pandora factor without having to google or ask...
[21:05 18/02/2005] :-D
[21:06 18/02/2005] If I'm not mistaken, the Whiper is a cross between a Striped Bass and a White Bass, no?
[21:06 18/02/2005] yup
[21:06 18/02/2005] yep
[21:06 18/02/2005] 'Stripped'
[21:06 18/02/2005] erm...
[21:06 18/02/2005] lank locked stripped bass
[21:06 18/02/2005] land
[21:06 18/02/2005] yes, land locked
[21:07 18/02/2005] i know here stripped bass must be 28 inches and your only allowed 2 a day
[21:07 18/02/2005] few years ago it was 1 at 36 inches
[21:07 18/02/2005] Both already occupy the same water?
[21:10 18/02/2005] Has anyone seen, experienced, or read about specific problems with Whippers? (I missed the chat, so I don't know if that was mentioned)
[21:10 18/02/2005] <@craig> Here's a question.. What ornamental fish has been subjected to cross breeding and been exploited the most?
[21:10 18/02/2005] <@craig> No Russ, they just sorta became the topic at hand. :-)
[21:10 18/02/2005] ah
[21:10 18/02/2005] Carp:-)
[21:11 18/02/2005] grrrrrr
[21:11 18/02/2005] lol
[21:11 18/02/2005] dont mention those ebil bait stealing b@$t@rds
[21:11 18/02/2005] <@craig> Carp = goldfish.. :-D
[21:11 18/02/2005] Well, the little goldfish that we've come to love so much:-)
[21:11 18/02/2005] and koi ;)
[21:12 18/02/2005] i caught a 3 footer one night catfishing lucky me had an m80
[21:12 18/02/2005] <@craig> koi = fat goldfish :-D
[21:12 18/02/2005] Craig, I was typing that at the same time you posted:-D
[21:12 18/02/2005] <@craig> Great minds think alike.. :-D
[21:13 18/02/2005] * russ reminds himself about looking at keyboard while typing:-D
[21:13 18/02/2005] <+megan> lol
[21:14 18/02/2005] I suppose the number fish would be the guppy
[21:14 18/02/2005] the number two fish
[21:14 18/02/2005] <+megan> yeah
[21:14 18/02/2005] But......
[21:15 18/02/2005] They have just been 'enhanced' through selective breeding. They still have all their original parts ;-)
[21:15 18/02/2005] and they can swim more than 3 inches in a straight line:-D
[21:16 18/02/2005] <@craig> What about endler crosses? :-D
[21:16 18/02/2005] Hmmm, scarry thought
[21:17 18/02/2005] <@craig> Be nice if Cindy was here for this part of the conversation.
[21:17 18/02/2005] <@craig> It seems that with endler/guppy crosses that the endler genes win out..
[21:17 18/02/2005] Craig, I wouldn't doubt that there may actually be more Endler crosses on the market than the real mcoy
[21:17 18/02/2005] 'mccoy'
[21:19 18/02/2005] <@craig> Welp folks, unless anyone has anything else to add to the discussion...
[21:20 18/02/2005] moment....
[21:20 18/02/2005] <@craig> k.. :-)
[21:24 18/02/2005] I lost my train of thought... I'll have to catch the transcript. Megs, I know it was good one :-) When it comes to tropicals that we can keep in our tanks, many of theses hybrids or critters placed in genetic mix masters are nothing more than $$$$$. With the possible exception to the glowlight danios, there is very little scientific adnvaces that I have read about.
[21:26 18/02/2005] <+megan> :)
[21:26 18/02/2005] <@craig> So in a nutshell, its putting together different conspecs and then line breeding the off-spring for the abominations that they produce. :-)
[21:26 18/02/2005] As far as hybrids in natural waters, thats a subject beyond our scope in here. There are a thousand different reasons, but still the biggest danger is fish introduced 'on-purpose' into bodies of water the generally go aray.
[21:27 18/02/2005] the=that
[21:27 18/02/2005] Well said Russ
[21:34 18/02/2005] <@craig> Time to shut down for the evening.. :-D