Chat transcripts

[6:01:42:] <craig> If everyone promises to be good I'll leave the M bit off..
[6:01:53:] <Christine> promise
[6:01:59:] * Jessica always good
[6:02:06:] <megan> <-- :-0
[6:02:16:] <craig> I dunno, I see some tarnished halos out there..
[6:02:31:] <russ> :{
[6:02:34:] <Jessica> you're looking in a mirror
[6:02:35:] <russ> :[
[6:02:47:] <russ> :}
[6:02:53:] <russ> ah there I am :-D
[6:02:56:] <Jessica> lol
[6:03:08:] <craig> No fair picking on the host that just woke up..
[6:03:17:] <Jessica> oh, but thats the best time
[6:03:32:] <craig> Uhuh.. Yeah, right..
[6:03:37:] <Jessica> it is..
[6:03:59:] * russ thinks Craig was not awake when he posed that question about continents:-D
[6:04:08:] <craig> I *was* wide awake..
[6:04:20:] <craig> And serious too..
[6:04:35:] <Jessica> russ and sully replied
[6:04:37:] <russ> Your questions almost always throw me for a loop :-)
[6:05:03:] <craig> Anyways.. Russ, lets keep this informal tonight, please feel free to present your information at any time.
[6:05:45:] <russ> I started my answer about 9:30am this morning and didn't finish it til about 4pm this afternoon. Too much collateral work at work for a Friday :-/
[6:06:23:] <russ> let me kill the TV behind me and I'll get started:-)
[6:07:02:] <russ> should I go ahead and start now?
[6:07:19:] <Jessica> whenever you're ready russ
[6:08:22:] <russ> Good evening and thank you for allowing me once more to utilize what remaing brain cells I have left in order to share some practical information pertaining to this great hobby we call 'aquariology'. If not already known, please undock your chat window for better viewing. I think this can be done by simply typing /undock, then entering.
[6:09:07:] <craig> (If you are using the Web based chat from Internet Explorer or Mozilla)
[6:09:14:] <russ> I promise, even when referring to my slowly dissipating supply of brain cells, that this presentation will be interesting, informative, and in some cases, very enlighting. The topic I chose for tonight is: Fitration - Theory and Essence.
[6:10:08:] <russ> I first presented this information in 1994, and have had to update very little of it since then while presenting this to various aquarium clubs. Some of you may already have encountered this presentation on another.....well, lets just say another site and leave it at that.
[6:11:13:] <russ> With the help of references and/or a few discussions with Martin Moe Jr., Tim Hovanec, Stephen Spotte, John Kuhns,our own Pandora, and yours truely, I will present a general overview, then follow up with a little more detail.
[6:11:53:] <russ> Oh, by the way, this is going to be a rather long presentation.......
[6:13:12:] <russ> This is not a presentation on the operation of various filters or their practical application, and/or recommended brands or types, but rather why and what is being accomplished by the filter media. But, I guess since I mentioned filters I should start out by saying there is no good filter or bad filter. I will be glad to entertain Qs about types I like in the Q&A at closing :-)
[6:14:30:] <russ> The types that are available and the ones we use have distinct applications, depending on many factors. These factors include, expense (remember, this is a resource), tank size, number and size of fish kept, and whether it is fresh or saltwater.
[6:16:12:] <russ> Each hobbyist with experience and any authority on the subject will have preferences on what may be the best, but successful filtration always has a mechanical and biological component, with chemical filtration required on a 'needed' basis for special water requirements.
[6:17:10:] <russ> These processes can be carried out by very simple filters or very expensive ones. Fish will not know the difference. They will only be concerned with water quality results. But, whatever type filter is utilized, it should provide for water movement through the filtering material.
[6:17:54:] <russ> I guess I better get on with our general overview now........
[6:18:32:] <russ> There are three main types of filtration.....Biological, mechanical, and chemical. They all function by flowing water through or over the substrate of a filter media. The interface, (the surface between the solution and a gas or solid), is the site where filtration actually occurs.
[6:19:26:] <russ> The greater the available surface area, (internal and external), the greater the filtration potential of the media.
[6:20:01:] <russ> BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION: Utilizes living organisms to remove or transform toxic compounds generated within the aquarium system. Colonies of nitrifying bacteria, living on a substrate, transform
[6:21:20:] <russ> transform
[6:22:29:] <russ> tranform (oxidize) toxic maetabolic waste into a relatively nontoxic nutrient through a process called nitrification
[6:22:59:] <russ> *sorry* had some computer difficulties there
[6:23:22:] <russ> Another type of bacteria break down,(decay), complex proteins and other organic compounds containing nitrogen into ammonia through a process called mineralization.
[6:24:01:] <russ> MECHANICAL FILTRATION: Catches and holds large and small particles from the water flows for removal or decay. The physical size of the pores of the filter media determines the minimum and maximum size of particles that are removed.
[6:24:37:] <russ> CHEMICAL FILTRATION: Removes dissolved molecules from the water and 'aDsorbs' or 'aBsorbs' them onto or into the structure of the filter media. I'll explain adsorbtion and absorbtion.....
[6:25:14:] <russ> Adsorbtion: Is a process by which molecules are taken up 'on' the surface of a solid by chemical or physical action. Example...Large amounts of gases may be adsorbed on the surface of a porus material such as carbon.
[6:26:02:] <russ> Absrbtion: Is a process by which molecules are taken up 'into' or throughout a system by physical or chemical means. Thus absorbtion is the physical collection of molecules that are the right size to be trapped within the structure of the media.
[6:26:49:] <russ> Another type of chemical filtration adds or removes dissolved gases from the water through a pressurized reactor (Reverses osmosis), but should not be part of the filtration loop.
[6:27:35:] <russ> Sterilization of water may be considered a fourth type of filtration since the sterilzation process would remove unwanted life forms from your system (UV sterilization).
[6:28:14:] <russ> Substrates used as filter media may preform one or more of these filtration functions depending on the type of media used and design of the filtering system.
[6:28:52:] <russ> Thats a general overview. With all my might, I will now attempt to simplify a detailed explination of each basic filtration theory in hopes of relating it's essence to you.
[6:29:27:] <russ> BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION THEORY:
[6:29:54:] <russ> Biological filtration has been the subject of numerous book and magazine articles, local discussions, and encapturized (new word I just invented) on this site in about a thousand different posts and threads.
[6:30:54:] <russ> It is a complex biological process that is essential to the operation of aquatic culture systems and sewage processing plants. This process should be understood, at least in the very general sence, by every aquarist.
[6:32:19:] <russ> Ok, fish, invertabrates, and decay of organic matter create nitrogen rich waste that is primarily in the form of ammonia, a chemical compound that is toxic to aquatic life. Bacteria,(nitrosomonas sp), living on a substrate exposed to this water, use ammonia for energy and transform it into nitrite during the process.
[6:33:08:] <russ> Nitrite, is also toxic, but another bacteria,(nitrospiria(sp)sp), residing on the same substrate, use nitrite for energy and transform it into nitrate. Nitrate is a relatively non-toxic compound, and can be utilzed by plants to a degree, will continue to accumulate in the aquarium until removed by water changes or taken up in a small percentage by aquarium plants.
[6:34:00:] <russ> Before closing this section, I'd like to explain where the ammonia actually comes from. Chemical compounds called proteins make up most of the structure of all plant and animal cells. Plants and animals are constantly creating and destroying cells and the proteins that compose them, as part of their use of energy (metabolism) during life.
[6:34:58:] <russ> The composition of protein molecules includes a great deal of nitrogen, hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen. When protein molecules break down, nitrogen and hydrogen are linked together to form ammonia, (NH3). Carbon and oxygen are linked together to form carbondioxide, (CO2).
[6:35:52:] <russ> Living animals release the nitrogen of metabolic waste in the form of urea, uric acid, or, in the case of many aquatic animals, directly as ammonia. "Decay" bacteria, (heterotrophic), use any available organic compounds - urea, proteins, amino acids, fats, and carbohydrates, as energy sources to fuel their own existence.
[6:36:54:] <russ> As they remove the energy tied up in the chemical bonds of these organics, they break them down into simpler and simpler compounds until they are finally just simple inorganic minerals. This process is termed 'mineralization'.
[6:37:38:] <russ> Thus, ammonia, the toxic waste product of the metabolic processes of animals, and a major end-product of mineralization, is released in large quantity into the aquatic environment.
[6:38:15:] <russ> MECHANICAL FILTRATION THEORY:
[6:38:50:] <russ> Aquarium system water contains many undissolved particles. These could be of various sizes and molecularly clumped together. A mechanical filter catches and holds particles by physicaly trapping the particle within the filter,(straining or sieving), or by binding the particle to the filter through a chemical or biological process.
[6:39:32:] <russ> The composition, grain, pore, or fiber size, and the rate of water flow determine the efficiency of the mechanical filter and the size of the smallest particle that can be captured.
[6:40:13:] <russ> An efficient mechanical filter performs a very valuable function by capturing organic particles that would otherwise decay and add to the waste nitrogenn and dissolved organic compounds,(DOC), in the system water.
[6:40:55:] <russ> To perform this function, however, the mechanical filter must be frequently cleaned and the particles removed from the filter system. If particles were allowed to accumulate, and decay, the filter would still, in some capaciyt, act as a mechanical filter and would also become a biological filter.
[6:41:37:] <russ> 'capacity'
[6:42:00:] <russ> Undergravel filters are designed to perform both these functions, thus they are not the most efficient kind of biological or mechanical filter, though they do perform these functions adequately in most situations.
[6:42:48:] <russ> A strickly mechanical filter is usually a foam or fiber pad, or a floss layer or plug. These can be very effective if cleaned or 'replaced' regularly. Undergravel filters also function as mechanical filters and must be cleaned regularly to preserve both biological and mechanical functions.
[6:43:38:] <russ> CHEMICAL FILTRATION THEORY:
[6:44:01:] <russ> Earlier I mentioned that chemical filtration removes dissolved molecules from the water and aDsorbs or aBsorbs them 'onto' or 'into' the structure of the filter media. The important point to remember is that while mechanical filtration removes undissolved particles, chemical filtration removes dissolved substances molecule by molecule.
[6:45:12:] <russ> There are actually three processes that make up chemical filtration: Absorbtion, ion exchange, and adsorbtion. Many molecules have particular characteristics of size or chemistry that allows us to design a filter media that can remove them from solution.
[6:45:59:] <russ> I have rather large posters that I tried to get pics of and download, but was unsuccessful. They would have shown illistrations of molecular sieving and examples of gas and solid interfaces. I'll try to explain as well as possible.
[6:46:47:] <russ> Non-charged, polar charged, and hydrophilic molecules interact at the interface surface of a gas and solid media. All three processes are usually at work to some degree in all chemical filter media, although specific types of media are designed to use one of these processes on a primary basis.
[6:47:29:] <russ> Good grade, virgin activated carbon is most effective in removing non- polar molecules, and protein skimming is the most effective in removal of polar molecules. Except for aBsorbtion, molecular sieving chemical filtration is basically a surface effect.
[6:48:35:] <russ> In anticipation of some questions regarding 'fishless aquarium break- ins', the info presented on the nitrification process involves only one cycle out of many that can occur. In the fishless cycling (I can't beleive I said cycling) process, one is merely 'targeting' the specific species of bacteria we want to promote by the direct introduction of ammonia. Thus eliminating unecessary steps accomplished by decay bacteria.
[6:49:58:] <russ> Folks have been known to dissagree with the fishless method of tank break-in, opting for a more natural approach. Out of all the inovations, equipment, and methods of fishkeeping that came about in the past 100 years, I think that the fishless tank break-in methodology ranks at the top. It not only saves time, but can also eliminate many possibilities of 'shunting' a majority of degredation products into other cycles, thu
[6:52:57:] <russ> I have some links available that I can supply if anyone is interested in finding out more about polaor and non-polar molecules. Also molecular sieving and hydrphilic molecules. Sounds interesting, huh? :-)
[6:55:08:] <craig> Russ, please post the links.
[6:58:32:] <russ> *Polar and non-polar molecules* http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/chempolar.htm
[6:58:35:] <craig> Folks, I didn't set the M bit tonight so please, if you have a question, ask. Tonight is an informal chat. :-)
[7:00:27:] <Kimrin> Russ, in your opinion is chemaical filtration such as carbon necessary at all times?
[7:02:21:] <russ> no, not really. It could/should be used for special purposes such as removing meds, unsightly tannins(coloring), and/or phenols (orders)
[7:03:18:] <Kimrin> thank you, I didn't realize it would be useful for tannins. that's good to know
[7:03:26:] <Jessica> insert mild comment, since i can.. carbon is awesome at tannin removal...
[7:03:40:] <russ> *Zeolite&molecular sieving* http://www.jmgpt.com/html/zeolite_molecular_sieve_puri.html
[7:05:57:] <russ> *Hydrophilicity* http://en.wikpedia.org/wki/hydrophilic
[7:07:04:] <russ> I might point out tht all carbon is not created equal. Good grades should be utilized
[7:08:48:] <russ> Marineland granulated activated carbon (GAC) has a trusted track record of being amoung the best commercial grade carbon on the market
[7:09:41:] <Kimrin> you mentioned that a dirty mechanical filter would become biological. If we rinse our cartridges or whatever in tank water will that prevent the bacteria from forming?
[7:10:14:] <Kimrin> I guess growing would be a better word
[7:10:26:] <russ> it seems that there are two baad links . I'll try to find out whats wrong
[7:11:26:] <Kimrin> the first one worked for me
[7:12:41:] <russ> for molecular sieving, try retyping wikipedia
[7:12:43:] <Jessica> second link should be : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophilic
[7:12:56:] <russ> ;-)
[7:13:00:] <Jessica> wiki too
[7:13:58:] <russ> my original references are out of sight, but not out on mind, so I had to do a little search for some earlier tonight:-)
[7:14:42:] <russ> yes Jess, that one also.:-)
[7:16:38:] <russ> can't figure out what happened to the hydrophilic site. I copied address from my fav list
[7:17:14:] <Jessica> keep talking, i'll see if i can find it
[7:17:45:] <Jessica> http://www.jmgpt.com/html/zeolite___molecular_sieve_puri.html
[7:17:49:] <Jessica> hows that one look?
[7:18:02:] <russ> somebody surely has some questions I can try to anser:-)
[7:18:11:] <russ> 'answer'
[7:18:36:] <russ> thanks, thats it Jess:-)
[7:18:57:] <Jessica> the wonders of google :D
[7:19:11:] <Jessica> russ.. what are your filter preferences, since you mentioned that earlier
[7:19:36:] <russ> type and brand?
[7:20:02:] <Jessica> yup
[7:24:06:] <russ> I like to separate my filter components. In otherwards, I try to avoid housing everything into a single 'shell' For mechanical filtration, I like Ocean Clear caniters. For biological, if not a DYI setup, then I would have to go with the old Rainbow fluidized. For chem, when needed, I add a seperate filter, maybe hob or carbon pac in the canister
[7:24:57:] <russ> Rainbow UV towers for sterilization
[7:26:35:] <russ> of coarse this is not practical for many of us, so, I guess I'll have to go either with a Emperor or
Aquaclear w/additional pro-biowheel and pwrhd :-)
[7:27:29:] <Jessica> :D
[7:28:13:] <russ> However, we must not forget one of the best ones avail to us.....
[7:28:47:] <russ> it generally consists of a bucket and siphon ;-)
[7:28:58:] <Jessica> lol
[7:29:04:] <Jessica> that one is quite handy ;-)
[7:29:16:] <Kimrin> and fairly cheap!
[7:29:24:] <russ> this is a hands-on hobby after all:-D
[7:30:07:] <Jessica> indeed :D
[7:32:42:] <Jessica> well.. russ, thank you very much for this. there is an incredible amount of information here. some of the technicalities i was very glad to learn.
[7:33:10:] <russ> Actually, Eclips systems are pretty good also. That is, IF you don't stock the tank according to the goofy picture on the box :-D
[7:33:22:] <Jessica> LOL
[7:33:23:] <russ> 'Eclipse'
[7:33:49:] <Christine> yes, very thorough presentation, thanks Russ
[7:34:13:] <russ> thank you:-)
[7:35:30:] <russ> I still wish we could locate a board post from Jan, 03, about 'fish food cycling'. That was a real winner of a discussion and covered a ltot about the processes discussed here tonight
[7:36:15:] <russ> Pandora and Dan really shined in that one:-)
[7:37:06:] <Jessica> too bad it was lost, i wonder if pat has it on his computer somewhere
[7:38:39:] <russ> I have managed to print copies of about 15 pages out of fifty possible ones, but it was deffinatly something you had to be there for:-)
[7:38:49:] <Jessica> hehe
[7:39:13:] <russ> I think Craig tried to locate this once or twice
[7:40:14:] <Kimrin> do you remember the subject line?
[7:40:30:] <craig> I did Russ, its rolled off the boards.
[7:40:42:] <russ> I think it was titled "Cycling with fish food"
[7:41:08:] <russ> yep, I get a error 404
[7:42:19:] <russ> I have a quiz question for everyone:-D
[7:42:25:] <Christine> uh oh
[7:42:40:] <Jessica> lol
[7:42:42:] <Jessica> what?
[7:42:55:] <Christine> Pop quiz on a Friday night? I'm in trouble
[7:43:04:] <Christine> jokes:)
[7:43:11:] <russ> which process occurs first, nitrification or mineralization?
[7:43:18:] <Christine> nitrification
[7:43:32:] <Jessica> mineralization
[7:44:26:] <craig> Neither, they occur at the same time, chelation of metals and minerals is a natural process that occurs along with the nitrogen cycle.
[7:44:42:] <Jessica> ROFL
[7:45:19:] <Christine> D'oh! Trick question, I thought it was a 50/50 guess.. LOL
[7:45:31:] <Christine> I'll watch for that one on Jeopardy
[7:45:32:] <russ> while both processes are happening at the same time in the aquarium, the mineralization process will actually take place even without fish in the tank.
[7:45:43:] <Christine> ohhh...
[7:46:12:] <craig> There are no side affects of the process?
[7:46:36:] <russ> for our purposes tonight, don't think of mineralization as a 'metal'. it is also a 'compound 'term:-)
[7:47:18:] <russ> Craig...very good point....as a matter of fact, there can be some very nasty side effects of decay bacteria
[7:47:56:] <Kimrin> is that the same as anaerobic?
[7:48:19:] <russ> no, heterotrophic bacteria are oxy lovers
[7:49:12:] <russ> there is more to decomposition than the nitrogen cycle alone
[7:49:41:] <russ> there are also other cycles which are all interlaced
[7:50:18:] <russ> phosphorus cycle, sulfer cycle, carbon cycle, etc.
[7:50:45:] <russ> pathogens are also members of the heterotrophs:-(
[7:51:39:] <craig> Sorry, got sidetracked downstairs..
[7:52:18:] <Jessica> whats up?
[7:52:18:] <craig> Russ, given decay, regardless of animal population, will there not be some degree of nitrification in water regardless?
[7:53:54:] <russ> when they are allowed to proliferate in rotting food, etc, those pathogens (bacteria) run out of rotting food to eat, they can attach to mucus membranes and start digesting the slime layer, or worst yet, reak havoc once bloodborne
[7:55:21:] <russ> Craig, yes, but with a proportional amount of decay, there will be an equal proportion of competition with the nitrifyers
[7:56:05:] <russ> keeping excess gunk out of one's tank will insure more than a even playing field for the good guys:-)
[7:57:00:] <craig> Agreed, however... You know there is always a but when I chat. :-D
[7:57:34:] <russ> in a way, we can now see how all this stuff fits or comes together in our tanks and with our maintenance schedules, etc., and reason for them:-)
[7:57:49:] <craig> My 20 gallon tank, it gets no water changes, just top offs, it has a lot of leaf litter from plants that are dead sitting on the substrate......
[7:58:22:] <craig> Its a densely planted tank, I keep rams (which are sensitive fish) in it.....
[7:58:44:] <Christine> I was just noticing that and was amazed
[7:58:50:] <craig> How does what you said tonight come into play here? Basically I ignore this tank.
[7:59:24:] <russ> what type of plant leaves?
[7:59:40:] <russ> like oak tree leaves or something?
[8:00:12:] <craig> Russ, anubias, hygro, rotala, etc.. The plants that are in the tank..
[8:00:35:] <russ> Ooops, I ment what type leaf litter?
[8:01:21:] <craig> Umm, what I just said, the leaves that have fallen off the above. :-)
[8:03:05:] <Kimrin> how long have you been doing that with that tank Craig?
[8:03:23:] <craig> Kim, the tank has been running for over 2 years.
[8:03:24:] <russ> the anbuias and hygro are good utilizers of nutrients. Are any of these plants growing above the surface of the water?
[8:03:31:] <craig> Russ, No.
[8:05:04:] <craig> I set this tank up something close to 2 and a half years ago, for the first 6 months it had no live plants, just fake stuff.
[8:05:10:] <craig> Then I went planted with it..\
[8:06:00:] <russ> Hmmm, don't have a clear cut answer for that one. Nutrients could possibly be shunted into other cycles besides nitrification and if you have a 'mild' fish load, then things may just be equaling out. That or you tank is waiting for that one extra bullet in a roulette game:-)
[8:06:44:] <craig> Russ, the tank load has dropped.. Its down to 9 cherry barbs, a rubbernose pleco, 2 rams and 2 kuhlis..
[8:06:54:] <craig> At one time it had those, plus 13 sids..
[8:07:31:] <Christine> how big do Sids get?
[8:07:39:] <craig> 3-5 inches.
[8:07:45:] <Christine> thanks:)
[8:08:04:] <russ> being that all tanks are not equal after start up it may be just a matter of time. but it should not last forever in that state. It is, for the present, a cool setup though
[8:08:36:] <Christine> I've heard of this before - only with goldfish, which have higher ammonia output, right?
[8:08:48:] <craig> After startup, this thing has been going for over 2 years?
[8:09:39:] <Christine> It was a 55 gallon - tons of goldfish, no plants, and they just topped of the water as it evaporated - the fish lived over 10 years?!
[8:10:10:] <russ> I guess it's about time to ask what your water perameters are in that tank:-D
[8:10:38:] <craig> Ammonia - 0, nitrites - 0, nitrates - 20ppm.. Anything else you want to know?
[8:10:58:] <Christine> Maybe it works for some and not for others by chance?
[8:11:26:] <russ> Yes...How much will you charge for a gallon of that water to 'seed' one of my tanks:-D
[8:11:41:] <craig> Honestly, I think we over think how we keep our fish...
[8:11:59:] <russ> thats the truth:-)
[8:12:00:] <craig> Look at the damn things! Plants too, its all about balance.
[8:12:11:] <Christine> I knew you knew the answer to your questions all along Craig!
[8:13:24:] <russ> yep. if one reads an Innes book from about fifty years ago, the exact same doctrine is still in use. But we mange to overthink and over utilize collateral equipment and methods to 'balance' our tanks:-)
[8:13:37:] <craig> I have that book Russ. :-D
[8:13:55:] <russ> :-D
[8:14:02:] <craig> The covers have fallen off, but still. ;-D
[8:14:06:] <russ> how about Sterba?
[8:14:19:] <craig> Innes and Axelrod here..
[8:14:28:] <russ> :-D
[8:14:54:] <Christine> Can I butt in (as if I haven't enough) with a question Craig?
[8:15:01:] <craig> Sure..
[8:15:06:] <Christine> How long have you had your rams in there?
[8:15:12:] <russ> well, I have to break for a bit. Thanks again for the time allotted to present this tonight. will try to be abck a little later:-)
[8:15:23:] <Christine> thanks so much Russ
[8:15:39:] <russ> :-)
[8:15:41:] <megan> thanks very much russ :) 'night
[8:15:56:] <craig> This is the second of my tanks they have been in, they have been in the 20 for about 3 months now. They went through QT in a 10 for about a month before that.
[8:16:12:] <Christine> I see.
[8:16:34:] <Christine> Very interesting... is it almost experimental for you? I mean to put rams in your "no water change" tank?
[8:16:46:] <craig> No, its not experimental.
[8:16:55:] <Christine> oh k, just wondering
[8:17:11:] <craig> That tank just "does it" for them.
[8:17:22:] <Christine> I thought maybe you were trying to prove a point by putting sensitive fish in your perfectly balanced tank, you know :)
[8:17:29:] <Jessica> LOL
[8:17:30:] <Christine> fantastic
[8:17:38:] <craig> No points to prove, I don't do that.
[8:17:50:] <Christine> you know, I envy you Craig
[8:18:09:] <craig> Read hon, read..
[8:18:14:] <Christine> what?
[8:18:43:] <craig> There is a literal plethora of information out there on fish, read as much as you can..
[8:19:05:] <Christine> oh, yes dear, I spend more time reading about fish than I do with my studies!
[8:19:11:] <Christine> Its becoming a problem
[8:19:13:] <craig> Every once in a while break the rules, it works.
[8:19:20:] <Christine> and my husband even had to have a talk with me the other night
[8:19:40:] <craig> Dear, I work a full time job plus run a business at home and keep 8 tanks. It can be done. ;-)
[8:20:16:] <Christine> For sure! I'm in the obsessed stage of the hobby I think - if stages in the hobby exist that is
[8:20:32:] <Christine> Can't soak up enough information
[8:20:41:] <Jessica> awesome :)
[8:20:47:] <craig> Umm, pardon, Obfishion, right?
[8:20:54:] <Kimrin> Tom Griffin mentioned that sort of tank in his chat here too.
[8:20:55:] <Christine> heheh yeah
[8:21:04:] <craig> k, thought so. :-D
[8:21:16:] <Christine> I should have never changed my name!
[8:21:21:] <Christine> now nobody knows me
[8:21:24:] <craig> Kim, Thomas Barr, yes. :-D
[8:21:40:] <Kimrin> It still shows up as your user name :)
[8:21:44:] <Christine> yeah, I read that one - makes sense
[8:21:56:] <Kimrin> rofl! yeah the guy named Tom
[8:22:02:] <Christine> yeah, I know - I'm just being dramatic
[8:22:37:] <craig> Its a pain in the rump, but its true, its all about finding a balance.. Sometimes that is not easy and you WILL lose fish.
[8:22:47:] <Christine> right [8:26:05:] <Christine> so folks, my snails aren't breeding:(
[8:26:17:] <Christine> not in my snail breeding tank anyways...
[8:26:22:] <Kimrin> of course not, you want them to!
[8:26:23:] <Christine> just in the other tanks:(
[8:26:29:] <Christine> lol
[8:28:32:] <Christine> It almost saddens me when I hear about people tossing out snails that would be great meals for my puffer ( althought I was once there too when I hated snails in my tank, but now I need them!)
[8:29:02:] <Christine> I feel like I'm talking to myself because I gab too much
[8:29:04:] * craig offers up all the ramshorn snails he has
[8:29:05:] <Jessica> get a bucket outside, toss a few in, the algae that grows should make for something :-)
[8:29:19:] <Christine> ohhh their are bodies out there and pretty faces too!
[8:29:24:] * craig wubs his ramshorn snails
[8:29:33:] <craig> But they are quite prolific...
[8:29:37:] <Christine> I've read that ramshorn are too tough for puffers...
[8:29:51:] <Jessica> dad's puffer doesn't like them all that much
[8:29:56:] <craig> Not when they are young and it depends on the species..
[8:30:00:] <Jessica> he prefers pond snails..
[8:30:03:] <Christine> fahaka may
[8:30:20:] <Christine> I have yet to see a ramshorn in my tanks
[8:30:57:] <craig> I've got about 20 baby ramshorn snails on the glass of my first rivertank.. The schisturas pick them off at their leisure..
[8:31:43:] <Christine> I LOVE my loaches- I want more
[8:31:51:] <Jessica> loaches rock
[8:32:02:] <Christine> some of my friends come over and they say "ewww they're like worms!"
[8:32:03:] <craig> Hehehe..
[8:32:07:] <Christine> they don't like tham
[8:32:11:] <Jessica> LOL
[8:32:11:] <Christine> *them
[8:32:16:] <craig> They haven't seen my clowns. :-D
[8:32:20:] <Jessica> i have been told my khulis are like worms..
[8:32:31:] <craig> Or my dojos..
[8:32:32:] <Kimrin> I thought sids only got to abot 2 inches, i was bummed when you said they get 3-5
[8:32:55:] <craig> Kim, why?
[8:32:56:] <Christine> They think they are boring because they are not colorful - and then I say watch this - and I reach for the food and those suckers go like mad and then everybody's like "ahhh those guys are kinda neat"
[8:33:24:] <Jessica> lol
[8:33:28:] <Christine> so, my loaches are entertainers for company now
[8:33:31:] <Jessica> :D
[8:33:33:] <Christine> its great
[8:33:35:] <Kimrin> oh, just cause I was eyeing them up as a dwarf type, smaller fishy less load :)
[8:34:03:] <Jessica> kim, it'll take along time to get to 5" and they arent a huge bioload..
[8:34:13:] <Jessica> are you going planted?
[8:34:55:] <Kimrin> oh I forgot about how long they take, do loaches in general grow slowly?
[8:35:12:] <Kimrin> oh absolutley
[8:35:31:] <Jessica> sids do
[8:35:48:] <Jessica> in a RT, schisturas and brook loaches grow *fast*
[8:35:54:] <Kimrin> might take a bit to get it fully planted though, i think I'll just collect a few a week from the stores rather than buying them online
[8:37:02:] <Jessica> when you go fully planted, most bioload issues become moot
[8:37:08:] <Jessica> unless you go totally crazy
[8:37:18:] <Jessica> you're left with max size and territory
[8:37:56:] * craig has been a bad/good influence on someone here :-D
[8:37:58:] <Kimrin> yes, it's all a puzzle that needs to be put together :)
[8:38:12:] <Jessica> lol craig
[8:38:23:] <Jessica> you're a horrible influence ;-D
[8:38:35:] * craig polishes halo
[8:40:25:] <Kimrin> Craig what horrible/good thing did you do?
[8:40:37:] <Jessica> I finally figure out what is extra fascinating about the 50G.. there are no tannins in it.
[8:40:45:] <craig> Uh, kinda got someone hooked on loaches..
[8:40:47:] <Kimrin> lol!
[8:40:51:] <Jessica> I've been peat filtering the water for that tank for so many weeks..
[8:40:53:] <Jessica> lol
[8:40:58:] * Jessica not hooked on loaches
[8:41:07:] <craig> Riiiiiiiiiiight..
[8:41:17:] <Kimrin> oh no, not at all
[8:41:31:] * craig looks at his riverank and sees the two loaches waiting...
[8:41:42:] * Jessica doesn't yeah, i dont have 22 species of loachies
[8:41:50:] <Jessica> -doesn't
[8:42:08:] * craig polishes halo some more
[8:42:16:] * craig has done his job here :-D
[8:42:17:] <JP> Icky loaches...
[8:43:21:] <Kimrin> Jess pets her loaches :)
[8:43:30:] <craig> This is going to be a fun one to edit, can we move this back to #badmanschat ? :-D
[8:43:36:] <Jessica> lol wait
[8:43:54:] <Jessica> russ was going to tell us hte diffeence between ammoniafication and nitrification
[8:43:56:] <russ> NO!!!!
[8:44:04:] <craig> k...
[8:44:09:] <russ> :-P
[8:44:11:] <JP> Can be done in #badmanschat.
[8:44:11:] <craig> Russ, you are up. :-D
[8:44:13:] <JP> :P
[8:44:16:] <russ> ok, just a sec
[8:44:19:] <craig> No, do that here..
[8:44:23:] <JP> Pfft..
[8:44:24:] <Jessica> lol..
[8:44:31:] <JP> Russ, say a lot. ;)
[8:45:27:] <russ> a quote from Pandora from the infamous debate on cycling with fish food:-)
[8:46:19:] <russ> Q: "Nitrogenous waste will need the ammoniafying bacteria to get processed"
[8:47:03:] <JP> <russ> a quote from Pandora from the infamous debate on cycling with fish food:-)
[8:48:06:] <russ> A: Not true. Ammoniafication is the 'production' of ammonia. This is already done by fish as they catabolize food and release ammonia through their digestive, renal and respiratory systems"...more....
[8:49:30:] <russ> "there is no need to have exogenous bacteria to do this unless you really do have rotting food in the tank on a regular basis."
[8:50:17:] <russ> :-)
[8:50:58:] <Jessica> :-D
[8:51:01:] <Jessica> thanks russ :D
[8:51:34:] <craig> Umm, shouldn't you also talk about how ammonia production is a by-product of fish breathing in general?
[8:51:56:] <russ> yep, just a sec:-)
[8:52:53:] <russ> ok, here we go....
[8:52:55:] <craig> Don't shoot me Russ, just asking questions to get things on the record, so to speak. :-)
[8:54:23:] <russ> Because of the toxicity of ammonia, all fish and many aquatic animals have evolved the capability to excrete this by passive diffusion through the gill membranes. :-)
[8:55:03:] <craig> Caveat coming.. :-)
[8:55:28:] <craig> Fish excrete ammonia as a -natural- by-product of respiration..
[8:56:12:] <russ> Livig animals release the nitrogen of metabolic waste in the form of urea, uric acid, or , in the case of many aquatic animals, directly as ammonia, also:-)
[8:58:09:] <russ> ammonia also play a small part in the coloration of fish too:-) But I'm not going there tonight....:-D
[8:58:17:] <Jessica> why not?? lol
[8:58:39:] <russ> because I plan on going to sleep in about 20 minutes or so :-D
[8:58:54:] <Jessica> lol
[8:59:01:] <craig> Bah, I could keep you up all night. :-D
[9:00:00:] <craig> I think I can sum it all up in one simple sentence...
[9:00:22:] <craig> "Look at your fish, if it doesn't look right, it ain't."
[9:00:30:] <Jessica> lol
[9:00:32:] <russ> :-D
[9:00:55:] <russ> But don't 'overlook' :-D
[9:01:00:] <Jessica> oh true.. hehe
[9:01:21:] <Kimrin> or overthnk?
[9:01:29:] <craig> Uh, we are talking about fish fanatics here..
[9:01:49:] <russ> silly me. What was I thinking :-D
[9:01:56:] <Kimrin> lol, I'm just repeating what you said earlier
[9:02:10:] <craig> And people that do things outside the norm..
[9:02:19:] * craig points at self
[9:02:37:] <Jessica> lol
[9:02:50:] <Kimrin> I kinda thought you were abnormal :)
[9:03:38:] <russ> and tanks that function out of the norm?
[9:04:21:] <craig> Russ, honestly I don't think my tanks are far from the norm..
[9:04:41:] <Jessica> not out of the norm, that function out.. most people dont have a balance that you do..
[9:04:53:] <craig> I do my water changes, but I let a lot of things ride..
[9:06:21:] <russ> Ok, ammonia and fish color...you asked for it....lol
[9:06:26:] <Jessica> yay :D
[9:06:59:] <russ> It mainly involves irridescene more than color...more....
[9:09:23:] <russ> waste products of nitrogen metabolism are deposited in skin, eyes, and fins. These wates or guanines are polymeres of ammonia. They usually exist as crystalline arrays that refract light and give the fish a irredescent sheen. :-D
[9:10:11:] <russ> Thankyou Robert Goldstein, Ph.d. :-D
[9:10:21:] <Jessica> :-D
[9:10:30:] <craig> But. :-D
[9:10:36:] <russ> I'm hungry.
[9:10:41:] <Jessica> thanks russ
[9:10:52:] <Jessica> its been very interesting :D
[9:11:00:] <russ> But?
[9:11:10:] <Kimrin> it's been great :)
[9:11:12:] <Jessica> no buts
[9:11:17:] <Jessica> I'm not craig :-0
[9:11:20:] <craig> Go to bed Russ, it'll wait for another day. :-D
[9:11:27:] <JP> Thank you, God.
[9:11:33:] <Jessica> LOL
[9:11:37:] <Jessica> tsk tsk, jp
[9:11:42:] <JP> :D
[9:11:46:] <russ> I'm still good for another 15 minutes :-)
[9:11:55:] <craig> Okay.. :-D
[9:11:57:] <Jessica> :-D
[9:11:58:] <JP> Oh sheesh, see ya!
[9:11:59:] <russ> JP:-P
[9:12:04:] <JP> :P
[9:12:07:] <russ> :-D
[9:12:08:] <Jessica> so.. we can keep pounding your brain?
[9:12:23:] <russ> til it's mush
[9:12:31:] <Jessica> woohoo
[9:12:35:] <craig> How does one explain the colors of a fish in an overstocked tank that continues to show its true colors?
[9:12:49:] <russ> but you realize I'm missing Stargate Atlantis?
[9:12:57:] <Jessica> i though you already missed it
[9:13:00:] <JP> :O
[9:13:04:] <Kimrin> oh wow! Stargate!
[9:13:04:] <craig> You volunteered. :-D
[9:13:16:] <russ> encore performances
[9:13:18:] <craig> Now, answer my question.
[9:13:19:] <JP> Russ, there are more important things than Craig's questions. ;)
[9:13:32:] <russ> craig...yes
[9:13:33:] <Jessica> JP, go stare at your tank
[9:14:18:] <russ> Craig, you mean the fish showing its true colors, or the tank water?
[9:14:24:] <Kimrin> It runs all evening on fridays
[9:14:31:] <Jessica> the fish i think
[9:14:36:] <Jessica> kim, not always
[9:14:44:] <Jessica> just this time
[9:15:02:] <craig> How does a fish, in other than optimal conditions show its colors? Heart of the matter..
[9:15:58:] <russ> Hmmm, I guess the fish are trying to maintain a one-upmanship with their tankmates
[9:16:31:] <Kimrin> like how animals try to hide the fact thqat they're sick
[9:16:47:] <Kimrin> so others won't know that they're weak
[9:16:58:] <russ> maybe for birds, but I can't say for sure about fish:-)
[9:17:29:] <russ> ever see a fresh neon demise..It's brilliant!
[9:17:50:] <Jessica> fresh neon demise?
[9:17:59:] <Kimrin> last hurrah?
[9:18:01:] <russ> until the cells start to break down that is
[9:18:46:] <Jessica> but if the cells dont break down?
[9:19:04:] <craig> I didn't get an answer. :-)
[9:19:32:] <russ> ok , your gonna make me dig out my 'Dynamic Aquaria' book now?
[9:19:41:] <Jessica> of course, lol
[9:19:52:] <craig> No, what I am trying to get at is that we don't really know, do we?
[9:19:57:] <russ> with only 11 minutes to go?
[9:21:00:] <russ> I have no dought as to the amazement capabilities of our aquatic friends and critters on a daily basis:-)
[9:21:45:] <craig> What it boils down to is that Mother Nature is a very fickle beast, no matter what we do, she will prevail.
[9:22:42:] <russ> all the aquarium support equipment in the world, and things still remain the same in our tank...except for the antics of our fish. They seem to constantly amaze us:-)
[9:23:55:] <craig> As I said before.. Look at your fish. Why does it have to be more complicated than that?
[9:26:20:] <russ> create more jobs in the pet industry?
[9:26:30:] <Jessica> LOL
[9:26:38:] <craig> You took the easy out. :-D
[9:28:05:] <Kimrin> look at your fish, if it ain't broke don't fix it? that waht you're saying Craig?
[9:28:09:] <russ> I could take the philosophical way out, but I have only three minutes left:-D
[9:28:20:] <craig> All the science in the world helps, but is there an answer to the basic question, do we really know?
[9:28:21:] <Kimrin> lol Russ
[9:28:49:] <Kimrin> not unless they start talking to us
[9:28:54:] <russ> I think, therefore I am?
[9:29:23:] <russ> I think fish are cool, therefore they are?
[9:29:26:] <Jessica> LOL
[9:29:26:] <craig> Give me the science behind it. ;-D
[9:30:06:] <Jessica> philosophy doenst have a 'science' its all theory built upon each other ;-D
[9:30:12:] <Kimrin> from the realm of science to the realm of mystery.....
[9:30:17:] <russ> would we really know if I did?
[9:30:20:] <craig> I'm not really trying to be a jerk about this, the questions are honest..
[9:31:10:] <craig> I guess all in all I am trying to make a point, regardless of the science things are different.
[9:31:24:] <Kimrin> I'll second that
[9:32:59:] <russ> Its in human nature to 'collect' things. Fishies amoung them ;-)
[9:33:13:] <craig> One of these days we'll take up that conversation of chelation and nitrification.. Not tonight tho. ;-)
[9:33:31:] <Jessica> russ i'm guilty of that
[9:33:44:] <russ> we'll have to bring Dan in here when we do :-)
[9:33:48:] <craig> I am too, but that is NOT a bad thing.
[9:34:44:] <Jessica> i dont think russ said it was
[9:34:49:] <russ> I'm not a chemist or microbiolgist, or icthyologist, but I have good friends that are:-)
[9:35:25:] <craig> Well, I don't buy into the chemistry, it only works so far..
[9:35:49:] <Jessica> naw, it works, just there's many factors, some perhaps we dont realize..
[9:36:11:] <craig> It only works so far... I said that..
[9:36:46:] <russ> and that kind of relates back to what craig said about over complicating things in our tanks:-)
[9:36:46:] <Kimrin> or we only know so much
[9:37:01:] <Jessica> :D
[9:37:42:] <craig> So as I said earlier, what do we do?
[9:37:57:] <craig> Something simple, look at our fish?
[9:39:16:] <russ> I think a more opperative phrase would be 'observe our fish'?
[9:39:57:] <craig> And what is the difference between the two?
[9:40:00:] <Kimrin> I think it's interesting that there are "other" cycles. understanding them could be the key to our mysteries. but I agree observing the fish is easier
[9:40:13:] <russ> this way, one not only looks to enjoy, but looks to investigate all the things that are good and bad
[9:40:58:] <craig> Kim, if you want to get a real perspective on this, search for "CO2 gas exchange in the ocean".. It will blow your mind.
[9:41:42:] <Kimrin> no doubt, it doesn't take much :)
[9:41:57:] * russ is starting to observe his 'Dynamic Aquaria' book
[9:42:04:] <Jessica> lol
[9:42:15:] <craig> Russ, Sully and I have been down this road a few times. Go for it, its fun. :-D
[9:42:40:] <russ> if one wishes to read something to blow mind and eyeballs, that book is it:-D
[9:43:16:] <Kimrin> I wrote that topic down Craig, to look up later....for now it's good night friends, i'm going to go sit by a fire in ther back yard
[9:44:24:] <Kimrin> :) and thanks Russ, you're making lazy old brain cells start to stir here
[9:45:21:] <craig> pfft, I get no credit for being the devil's advocate..
[9:51:01:] <craig> Russ, don't take any of this personally, you know my thoughts.